Trapshooters Forum banner

61 - 76 of 76 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,125 Posts
Discussion Starter #61
I've been lobbying for years, without success, to eliminate the muzzle velocity limits.
So have several others. I too think the rule is outdated ,and american style ATA Trap remains the ONLY clay target game that has a "speed limit" . There are still lots of die hards that think souped up velocity gives you some great advantage in the game. Don't think I buy that but ,probably because of it the rule still exist . The real bug a boo in the whole thing is the fact that true velocity of a shell can ONLY be proven by a calibrated chronograph under controlled lab conditions ( something I don't think you will see at the local gun club)! I have only seen shells challenged on 3 occasions in over half a century. I one case the shooter was using reloads in hulls marked as nickle plated shot. They cut a couple of them open and found they were lead 7-1/2s . One other time they thought a guy was using illegal shells . Can't remember the exact reason but ,he was a frequent winner in shooting long range "games" and was known to favor # 6s for that . At any rate they examined and weighed the shot load and it was within legal limits. In these cases nothing was said about the powder charge. The 3rd time was at the Grand years ago. A guy left his shells in the back of his pick up and they got rained on. The paper on the boxes were falling apart. He was shooting reloads for practice and had saved the empty boxes. He then put his factory shells ( which had to be purchased from the ATA in those days) into the empty reload boxes. Somebody saw them and called a line ref. After it was determined what happened that was that. As I said, I'm not a big fan of the " speed limit" rule but ,as long as it is a rule I think everybody ought to follow it. BTW The "HOTTEST " load I shoot anymore is 1200 FPS in registered tournaments and occasionally some Remington Nitros for Annies and Protections in "games" Most times I am using 1 oz. loads at 1200 FPS or less.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
215 Posts
Why don't you show where the rules say that . The truth is they don't . Time and time again I have heard people say "I think the rules say this or that "because they heard it from o'l Joe down at the club. I have lost count of the times I have heard somebody quote some "made up " rule they thought they knew . If you are going to state what some RULE is then do it from the "rule book" . It's on line and really not hard to get access to . I'm really not trying to bust your chops here but ,if you are going to claim a "rule" then please back it up with rule number ,page ,and paragraph .
Maybe you should give the rules a once over.
Section G, #5
Page 49, last paragraph:

5. Shoot Management, ATA official(s) or any contestant may challenge the load of any other contestant. Any challenge shall be initiated so as to not disrupt the harmony of the shoot or interfere with other contestants not involved with the challenge. On receipt of a challenge management or ATA official(s) shall obtain a shell or shells from the challenged party, and if after examination, management or ATA official(s) find the contestant violated the ATA rule, he/she may be disqualified. Any such initiated challenges, determined to be abusive in nature, will be referred to the ATA Executive Committee for disciplinary action.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,125 Posts
Discussion Starter #63
Maybe you should give the rules a once over.
Section G, #5
Page 49, last paragraph:

5. Shoot Management, ATA official(s) or any contestant may challenge the load of any other contestant. Any challenge shall be initiated so as to not disrupt the harmony of the shoot or interfere with other contestants not involved with the challenge. On receipt of a challenge management or ATA official(s) shall obtain a shell or shells from the challenged party, and if after examination, management or ATA official(s) find the contestant violated the ATA rule, he/she may be disqualified. Any such initiated challenges, determined to be abusive in nature, will be referred to the ATA Executive Committee for disciplinary action.
It appears in this case I broke my own cardinal rule and and did in fact rely on memory and "did not "research The CURRENT rule standing so in this case I stand corrected ,Since you have now listed the current rule AND it's location and reference in the current rule book. When I'm wrong I will admit it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,599 Posts
Pistol shooting of various types has "power" (actually momentum) factors that rely on chronographs. They are never as accurate as they pretend to be, which is why when I shot Service Pistol ( a version of PPC but much faster and with multiple targets) with a PF of 120 (weight in gr x FPS/1000) I aimed for a factor of 128.I've seen any number of people get DQ'd on dodgy chronographs. If the rules are written carefully enough (such as the competitor accepts the accuracy of all measuring devices by submitting to same) then the DQ will usually stand.

However I confess I have no idea why you guys still have a speed limit. If someone wants to beat the carp out themselves shooting 1 1/8 at 1400 fps all day, let 'em. They'll learn.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
228 Posts
Honestly, I don't see why the ATA rules committee doesn't do away w/the speed limit(s) altogether.

Going back to the very beginning, it was a live bird/flyer game & the favored loads were 3&¼ DE 1&¼ oz. loads rated at 1220 fps. That may have even been a stated maximum at the time. I dunno. Guessing, when clay targets were standardized the association moved to a 9/8's oz. 3DE load as max and that had a rated speed of 1200 fps, so it was stated in that manner & was continued, for the longest. I can't see much reason for the continuance of stating speed maximum's today.

If we are thinking safety and we should be, shot fall distances have more to do w/shot size, than velocity.

I am much more concerned about someone shooting left over #4 lead shot waterfowl rounds as a means of getting rid of them than I am about someone shooting higher [over 1200 fps] velocity lead #7.5's.

I belong to two dif. clubs and both are strict about allowable shot sizes limited to lead #7.5's being the largest allowed because of requisite safe shot fall distances that must be adhered to. Both have bunkers and some Italian bunker 'practice' ammo is loaded w/¾oz. lead shot @ 1450 fps and puts no added reason for concern regarding shot fall boundaries.

Just sayin'.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,125 Posts
Discussion Starter #66
Honestly, I don't see why the ATA rules committee doesn't do away w/the speed limit(s) altogether.

Going back to the very beginning, it was a live bird/flyer game & the favored loads were 3&¼ DE 1&¼ oz. loads rated at 1220 fps. That may have even been a stated maximum at the time. I dunno. Guessing, when clay targets were standardized the association moved to a 9/8's oz. 3DE load as max and that had a rated speed of 1200 fps, so it was stated in that manner & was continued, for the longest. I can't see much reason for the continuance of stating speed maximum's today.

If we are thinking safety and we should be, shot fall distances have more to do w/shot size, than velocity.

I am much more concerned about someone shooting left over #4 lead shot waterfowl rounds as a means of getting rid of them than I am about someone shooting higher [over 1200 fps] velocity lead #7.5's.

I belong to two dif. clubs and both are strict about allowable shot sizes limited to lead #7.5's being the largest allowed because of requisite safe shot fall distances that must be adhered to. Both have bunkers and some Italian bunker 'practice' ammo is loaded w/¾oz. lead shot @ 1450 fps and puts no added reason for concern regarding shot fall boundaries.

Just sayin'.
Good points but, my guess is that the old "hold over" crowd won't do away with the speed limit even though it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to enforce !!! Shot size can be easily controlled, likewise shot payload but, velocity is a whole can of worms. Velocity can be affected buy length of barrel, temperature , Density Altitude, powder burn rate, etc. ( all kinds of stuff) ! For instance a shell's velocity won't be the same at high altitudes in "Thin air" as it will in coastal areas at sea level . The ONLY way to check or VERIFY a shell's true velocity is under strict controlled laboratory conditions . That ain't happening at a Trap Shoot and ANYBODY who thinks so is a delusional FOOL ! American Trap remain the ONLY clay target game with a speed limit. I guess it falls under the " We have just always done it that way" heading .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,499 Posts
Good points but, my guess is that the old "hold over" crowd won't do away with the speed limit even though it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to enforce !!! Shot size can be easily controlled, likewise shot payload but, velocity is a whole can of worms. Velocity can be affected buy length of barrel, temperature , Density Altitude, powder burn rate, etc. ( all kinds of stuff) ! For instance a shell's velocity won't be the same at high altitudes in "Thin air" as it will in coastal areas at sea level . The ONLY way to check or VERIFY a shell's true velocity is under strict controlled laboratory conditions . That ain't happening at a Trap Shoot and ANYBODY who thinks so is a delusional FOOL ! American Trap remain the ONLY clay target game with a speed limit. I guess it falls under the " We have just always done it that way" heading .
So how do we go about putting this up to the EC for change then?
@Pipe Layer thoughts on the subject? (both if its come up before at the mgmt level and how the process goes)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
479 Posts
I am a dumpster diver for both hulls and boxes and have recently found some interesting stuff in the trash cans at registered shoots . I have found both hulls ( which appear to be once fired) and boxes ( which are sealed and not marked as reloads) that would indicated the ammo used were not within ATA rules. I'm not much on the ATA's "Speed Limit" since American Trap is the ONLY game in town that has a speed restriction but , rules are still rules and it seems a lot of folks either don't read the rule book or choose to ignore it in this department. The biggest finds seem to be both Win. and Remington hulls and boxes, that are marked 1300 FPS Sporting Clay loads. Another one is Win. Super Speed 1 oz. loads marked 1350 FPS ( 25 FPS over the limit for 1 oz. loads). I have even some Winchester "Diamond Grade" hulls and boxes. Of course these shells have copper plated shot which is ILLEGAL to use in ATA competition. Usually ,even if somebody is reloading and putting shells in a BOX so marked , Those boxes are marked as reloads with labels showing the reloading data on them ( I know mine are ). As I said ,While I may not be a fan of the ATA's Speed limit" rules, they ARE still RULES and everybody should be following them. If this was just a once in while thing that would really be no big deal but it seems to be happening a lot now.
I assume with the handle Slide Action you are a fan of the pump gun. Me too Winchester M12's and Remington Model 31's.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
I have never, ever, seen inspection or enforcement at any level of ATA. Why have a rule that is self- enforced by people of honor when not all people have honor?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,125 Posts
Discussion Starter #73
They really know how to beat themselves up.
Jack, you bring up a good point. When I was a young un ,I was a member of the "more is better" club myself. I shot the hottest loads . As I got older I began to think that just maybe beating myself up with recoil wasn't the best idea. My wife began to think so also. I went to 1 oz. loads ( for the most) part in 1986. Later I began to tone even those down a bit. Today we both shoot a 1oz. 1145 FPS load for singles and Doubles. For Handicap I go up to about 1180 FPS ( although she stays with the 1145 loads.) We both have back/neck problems . I have only won 3 trophies at the Grand over the years ( all with 1 oz. loads) Over the years most of my trophy case has been filled with those 1 oz. loads. I won't argue the fact that 1/8 oz. extra might give you a tad of mathematical advantage but, if you are flinching like the dickens ,and your neck is so messed up you can hardly move ,that advantage disappears quickly, and if you put a lot more powder behind that heavier pay load and you are not helping yourself . I am sure there are plenty of folks still on the HEAVY LOAD band wagon and ,there are a lot of those that keep the physical therapy folks in business but, a lot of us old dudes have gotten off that wagon over the years.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,193 Posts
I have used a chronograph many times and found that Factory AA Handicaps are faster than 1290 FPS. They are 100% legal but doing away with all velocity limitations would be an improvement in my opinion. You would need a chronograph like Neil had at every club to challenge this rule in place now. The same people will win consistently anyway because they are better shots.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,499 Posts
Sent an email to the rules committee as Pipe Layer suggested. Hopefully it can be brought up along the correct processes and changed since its not seemingly adding to our sport one way or another.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
Jack, you bring up a good point. When I was a young un ,I was a member of the "more is better" club myself. I shot the hottest loads . As I got older I began to think that just maybe beating myself up with recoil wasn't the best idea. My wife began to think so also. I went to 1 oz. loads ( for the most) part in 1986. Later I began to tone even those down a bit. Today we both shoot a 1oz. 1145 FPS load for singles and Doubles. For Handicap I go up to about 1180 FPS ( although she stays with the 1145 loads.) We both have back/neck problems . I have only won 3 trophies at the Grand over the years ( all with 1 oz. loads) Over the years most of my trophy case has been filled with those 1 oz. loads. I won't argue the fact that 1/8 oz. extra might give you a tad of mathematical advantage but, if you are flinching like the dickens ,and your neck is so messed up you can hardly move ,that advantage disappears quickly, and if you put a lot more powder behind that heavier pay load and you are not helping yourself . I am sure there are plenty of folks still on the HEAVY LOAD band wagon and ,there are a lot of those that keep the physical therapy folks in business but, a lot of us old dudes have gotten off that wagon over the years.
When our club hosts an ATA shoots, I see empty boxes of sporting clay loads which are 1300-1350 fps. I ask myself 'why are you folks working so hard and beating up on yourself?' 🤣 My loads are similar to yours. I've shifted from using 1.125 oz loads to just 1 oz for HCs. My HC scores are going up a little; not sure if that is the reason, but it's pointing in that direction. Now, I won't shoot 1.125 oz loads unless I get penalized past the 23. Why? Fatigue. Fatigue will kill my scores and seems to cause me to be less focused. My best scores were with AA hulls, Downrange Windjammer XL1, 1 oz 7.5, W209 primer and powered by Win WST in my 1962 Browning Lightning Superposed.
 
61 - 76 of 76 Posts
Top