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1 1/8oz Max not to exceed 3% this to include Factory Shells yes the Manufactures need to adhere to this.
So if your allowed 3% overage by rules. Then the 1,300 fps Win. AA loads are still within legal limits are they not? Since 10 fps falls within the 3% range does it not!

Not that IMO it really makes any difference. If a shooters wants to shoot 1,500 fps loads let them. Its there shoulder, not mine. As long as the club is OK with loads that will travel that far.

I shot at large skeet shoots when I was a young man. My father, and I were asked if we were going to use reloads when we signed up at a couple of shoots. We said YES. They told us to bring into the clubhouse the 4 boxes of shells we were going to shoot. We did so a few minutes later. The staff picked just 2 shells from the 4 boxes of shells. Cut them open and weighed the shot. We were good. There was no reason to check the powder weight, as in skeet there are no rules for speed. They knew 50 years ago this was not needed for a 21 yard game. Shot size could have been checked if needed? Of course it was not needed. Since most skeet shooters use #9 shot. There is zero reason to use #7 or #6 shot for skeet.

If someone wants to cheat they will!!!!!

They could place once fired reloads, loaded as hot as they like in a brand new STS box with A STS hull in it. If they used STS primers to load these shells. How could see they were reloads? A Win. AA hull is a different story. I can't buy the primers in factory shells. The primers that Win. sells always have a different color primer cover. So you can spot a reload easy if you know what to look for. The same could hold true with a Federal shell as well. Since there primers match factories as well. It would be easy to use a once fired hull of these and do load it hot as heck as well.

The one good thing about most Cheaters!!! they are rarely good enough to be very competitive!!!

The Skeet shooters in Markham Park found a registered skeet shooter there cheating in the 28 ga. event. It was about his 3rd time shooting at there monthly shoots in the winter. So he was a out of town snowbird for sure. When one of the shooters noticed his 28 ga. shells seemed big. Sure enough this guy was using some 40 year old 20 ga. hulls that were red in color. Obviously, made before the standard color yellow was introduced for all 20 ga. shells!!! They were shooting a Honors Only Shoot. There was nothing to win. No money, no trophy's or even a small trinket!!! So you tell me? Why would someone go to this length to cheat to win nothing?

I expect cuss he's just a cheat!!! I guess? break em all Jeff
 

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. At this point I have no idea who she is but she did pretty good on the 1st 100 ... i don't remember if it was 95 or 96 ... but clearly she was worth listening to. In any case, she goes on to explain that I'm handicapping myself at 16yds by using such a hot load ... the pattern doesn't have time to expand ... from 16yds a slower shell is actually better,
The faster the shot starts, the faster it slows down. From my reference, #8's @ 1145 take 0.009 seconds longer to get to 40 yards (a little beyond the distance people hit targets from the 16) than #8's @ 1255. How much more do you think a pattern can expand in nine-thousandths of a second? And if by chance the pattern is too tight, couldn't you use a slightly more open choke?

The primary reason to use slower shells to to not beat yourself to death with recoil.
 

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The ATA rule book limits the speed of a shell with 1-1/8 oz load of shot to 1290 FPS, 1 oz to 1325 FPS and 7/8 oz to 1350. The speeds are max, for this is the SAMMI max variance of 1200 FPS plus/minus 90 FPS, not 3%. The 3% variance is applied to the shot charge, so the most a 1-1/8 oz can weigh is 506.95 grains.

wording from the rule book.

“These velocities are maximum and no individual shotshell shall exceed these limits for the designated shot charge. In addition, no load containing more than 1 1/8 ounces or any shot larger than Number 7 1/2 can be used. Shot charges are maximum and no charge may exceed the charge amount by more than 3%. Steel shot in Number 7 will be acceptable as long as velocity criteria are the same as for lead shot shells.”
 

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There was a fella a few years ago at the MI state shoot shooting 1350 1oz Monarchs. He hit a big Lewis the night before he got busted for illegal ammo. Would he have hit the Lewis if he used a different shell? Who knows. He was sent a letter by the MTA that slapped his hand and told him not to do it again. Guy had no clue that there was such a rule
 

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As a posted earlier, there is a +- 90 fps allowable variation on factory shotshell loads. That factory listed 1290 thumper can be a 1380 stock cracker and still be legal for competition.

OTOH, that 1290 thumper can be a 1200 slowski and will still be packed and shipped.

Many reloads are faster than listed in loading manuals.

As far as speed limits, I hope a fellow I am in a shootoff with is using werewolf killers. LOL
 

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SAMMI specs for a 3 dram equivalent shotshell with 1-1/8 oz of shot is an average speed of 1200 FPS. The speed variance is allowed is plus or minus 90:FPS. This means if you have a box of 25 shells, marked 3 dram equivalent with 1-1/8 oz shot can contain shells that can have a high velocity of 1290 feet per second or a low of 1110 FPS and still be 3 dram shells.

The stated velocity of 1290 FPS for 1-1/8 oz, 1325 FPS for 1 oz and 1350 for 7/8 oz are maximum velocities. Technically a 1-1/8 oz shell with a velocity of 1291 FPS is an illegal load for ATA.
 

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I have been told by friends who Cronograph their shells that they are well over 1,300 fps for 1 1/8 of 7 1/2's. Are these shells illegal? If the answer is yes then Winchester AA super handicaps have a problem.

Now there is the question, is the Cronograph accurate and been tested? Are the folks testing these loads doing it properly? Is anybody going to test a top shooters factory ammo and disqualify there score?

Now we can talk about reloads, has anyone ever seen a reload Cronographed and has the shooter been disqualified for a overspeed load? Personally I have never seen this and I have been shooting for 40 years.

I can see a shooter being disqualified for shooting #6 shot, I can see them being disqualified for shooting 1 1/4 of shot. How about a factory shell cut open and being overweight or having # 6 shot found in the shell. Would this be reason for disqualification?

I personally find a lot of talk about ammo and nobody willing to open the Pandoras Box of testing Ammo. If it's a factory shell within spec of the ATA/PITA ruling it's good to go. Someone checking reloads with a Cronograph at a registered shoot then can expect ridicule of the way it was tested or is the Cronograph accurate? Just my opinion but there has been talk about Ammo for years and I've never seen a shell tested or a shooter disqualified.

If Tim brought his testing equipment to Witchita and was asked to test Ammo by club officers would it be considered gospel that it was done correctly and people ejected from the grounds. Does anyone want to address this slippery slope of is the equipment been adequately certified as accurate. Just my opinion and this isn't worth a lot.

PD
It probably would, but I'm sure Tim would rather be shooting. ;)
 

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The big problem.with all of this is there is no testing protocol if a complaint is made regarding reloads. For example: whose chronograph does the sanctioning body use? What Distance is the chrono set from the muzzle? Temp? Barometric pressure? Test barrel or the shooters gun? Non of this is spelled out and therefore it is darn near impossible to use to.disqualify a shooter.

This would be like saying that no car enters in the race can have no more than 500hp. The question then becomes what type dyno? Measured at the wheel or the crank? At sea level or in Denver? 81 octane or race gas?
 

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I have found both hulls ( which appear to be once fired) and boxes ( which are sealed and not marked as reloads) that would indicated the ammo used were not within ATA rules. I'm not much on the ATA's "Speed Limit" since American Trap is the ONLY game in town that has a speed restriction but , rules are still rules and it seems a lot of folks either don't read the rule book or choose to ignore it in this department. The biggest finds seem to be both Win. and Remington hulls and boxes, that are marked 1300 FPS Sporting Clay loads. If this was just a once in while thing that would really be no big deal but it seems to be happening a lot now.
Amen to that!!!
I agree but the only way to catch offenders is "in the act." That is, you have to see what's in their shell box while they're waiting to shoot or while they're on the line. And most people are concentrating on what they're doing, and not what others are doing.

I think the crux of the problem is ignorance of the rules.
I would say that has a lot to do with it. A lot of people (especially the newbies) have never read a rule book. Some just buy whatever is on sale at the local "Marts".

It seems that there are still people who think horsepower can make up for shooting skills. In the trap game: wrong.
In drag racing a bunch of horse power and correct tires/gears can make up for some reaction time (within reason) but in trap shooting, shooting skills trump horse power.

In my years experience working with youth and new shooters, the largest culprit has been moms and dads wanting their kids to gain every advantage possible. However, at the detriment of their child. In working with kids and their parents one of the first thing I tell them and demonstrate to them is that the lower powered, lower recoil loads will break targets from anywhere on the field and are far more pleasing to shoot.. And tell them about recoil effects and that recoil is cumulative and will lead to their kids not having fun and probably quitting. But, as soon as they get to the store to buy shells, the Super Sports and Nitro Sporting and Super Handicap shells catch their eyes and they feel those slobber-knockers will give their kid an advantage. Wrong.

Adults will do so too...................
 

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I've wondered if the higher heat of summer effects the speed of a shotshell? Or, what about elevation? I live and shoot at 5,500ft. Would my reloads shoot slower at sea level?
 
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Unless ATA is willing to confiscate shells and, with a chain of custody, submit to a company with a NIST certified chronograph, the rule is completely unenforceable and opens ATA to lawsuits if someone is DQed without scientifically verifiable evidence that the DQ was justified.
 

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It was probably my first year shooting ATA. Someone told me to try Winchester AA shells. I didn’t realize the difference between the red hulls and the grey hull sporting loads. The first time I used some sporting AA at a shoot a lady shooter on my squad suggested to me I didn’t need those thumpers. After looking further into it I realized I shouldn't have been using them. We learn from our mistakes more than our successes.
 

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I've wondered if the higher heat of summer effects the speed of a shotshell? Or, what about elevation? I live and shoot at 5,500ft. Would my reloads shoot slower at sea level?
Air density (which is influenced by air temperature, humidity, elevation, and air density...air density and elevation are related) affects not only downrange shot velocity, but also pattern percentages.

Shooting at high elevation in Utah is not the same as shooting in New Jersey at sea level.

The time it takes for your pellets to get from the muzzle to the target won't change remarkably, but the pattern percentage may. How much? Opinions vary.
 

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Unless ATA is willing to confiscate shells and, with a chain of custody, submit to a company with a NIST certified chronograph, the rule is completely unenforceable and opens ATA to lawsuits if someone is DQed without scientifically verifiable evidence that the DQ was justified.

This is why the only way to DQ a shooter is shot size being to large like 6's and 7 1/2's mix for instance or by a overweight payload of shot. Other that that I think your peeing into the wind with shell speed and it's not enforceable.

PD
 

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Discussion Starter #59
I think the rules say (and I could very well be mistaken) that calling someone out on a shell violation has to be done at a time when it doesn't interfere with the shoot, or something along those lines.
Why don't you show where the rules say that . The truth is they don't . Time and time again I have heard people say "I think the rules say this or that "because they heard it from o'l Joe down at the club. I have lost count of the times I have heard somebody quote some "made up " rule they thought they knew . If you are going to state what some RULE is then do it from the "rule book" . It's on line and really not hard to get access to . I'm really not trying to bust your chops here but ,if you are going to claim a "rule" then please back it up with rule number ,page ,and paragraph .
 

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Discussion Starter #60
So if your allowed 3% overage by rules. Then the 1,300 fps Win. AA loads are still within legal limits are they not? Since 10 fps falls within the 3% range does it not!

Not that IMO it really makes any difference. If a shooters wants to shoot 1,500 fps loads let them. Its there shoulder, not mine. As long as the club is OK with loads that will travel that far.

I shot at large skeet shoots when I was a young man. My father, and I were asked if we were going to use reloads when we signed up at a couple of shoots. We said YES. They told us to bring into the clubhouse the 4 boxes of shells we were going to shoot. We did so a few minutes later. The staff picked just 2 shells from the 4 boxes of shells. Cut them open and weighed the shot. We were good. There was no reason to check the powder weight, as in skeet there are no rules for speed. They knew 50 years ago this was not needed for a 21 yard game. Shot size could have been checked if needed? Of course it was not needed. Since most skeet shooters use #9 shot. There is zero reason to use #7 or #6 shot for skeet.

If someone wants to cheat they will!!!!!

They could place once fired reloads, loaded as hot as they like in a brand new STS box with A STS hull in it. If they used STS primers to load these shells. How could see they were reloads? A Win. AA hull is a different story. I can't buy the primers in factory shells. The primers that Win. sells always have a different color primer cover. So you can spot a reload easy if you know what to look for. The same could hold true with a Federal shell as well. Since there primers match factories as well. It would be easy to use a once fired hull of these and do load it hot as heck as well.

The one good thing about most Cheaters!!! they are rarely good enough to be very competitive!!!

The Skeet shooters in Markham Park found a registered skeet shooter there cheating in the 28 ga. event. It was about his 3rd time shooting at there monthly shoots in the winter. So he was a out of town snowbird for sure. When one of the shooters noticed his 28 ga. shells seemed big. Sure enough this guy was using some 40 year old 20 ga. hulls that were red in color. Obviously, made before the standard color yellow was introduced for all 20 ga. shells!!! They were shooting a Honors Only Shoot. There was nothing to win. No money, no trophy's or even a small trinket!!! So you tell me? Why would someone go to this length to cheat to win nothing?

I expect cuss he's just a cheat!!! I guess? break em all Jeff
The 3% over rule applies only to shot weight , not velocity. Probably because the only way to really identify and illegal shell is through weighing the shot or identifying shot larger than legal size. Determining is a shell is over the "speed limit" is nearly impossible without a calibrated chronograph under controlled lab conditions
 
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