[fssberson]

We will be holding a major ATA event soon and will be giving out trophies instead of money. We don't want to have shoot off's as they take a lot of time and cost the club money. When we gave away money we could split it, but with trophies we need to determine a winner between 100 straights in singles. We can roll over to the handicap event, but yardage between the shooters needs to be close [not 20 vs. 27]. HELP! Any suggestions. Fred

 

[timb99]

Coin flip, reverse run, longest run...there are many ways. Just make sure it is clear how you are going to do it BEFORE it happens.

 

[Trap2]

Fred.....There are several ways, as timb99 above said. The fastest, and easiest way is to flip a coin, or cut the cards for the win. That being said, I firmly believe ties for trophies should be shot off, thereby determining which shooter was the best shot for that particular day or event. Shoot-offs can be held "miss and out" to limit the number of targets thrown and reduce the time necessary to hold the shoot off. This will allow the best shooter to win by actually shooting off against others. Let the shooters that tie determine whether to flip, carry over, or shoot it off. If it is to be a major ATA event, it will be to your benefit to allow, and encourage shoot-offs. After all, that is the reason a lot of shooters compete in ATA registered shooting: To make it to the shoot-off circle and enjoy the rush. Why deprive them of the pleasure of doing so? I think that by not allowing shoot-offs, you are setting your club up for some negative feedback. If your club cannot afford to throw shoot-off targets you may want to re-think your entry fees, etc. Bottom line is that shoot-offs are a big part of registered shooting and not one to be taken lightly...Just my opinion......Dan Thome (Trap2)

 

[Edward Turner]

I agree with Dan 100%.

The trophy is for winning a SHOOTING event and your shooting is what should determine who gets the trophy.

I've won a few that way, but it's quite a let-down getting a trophy for being the best coin-flipper.

We come to shoot, we should shoot until there's a winner.

 

[lumper]

Tell'em that all tie scores will be disqualified and that the next highest (non-tied) score will be declared the winner.

Problem solved.

 

[Bawana]

Flip a coin, shoot off, fist fight, one walks away, and some above that I have not heard of.

 

[Bawana]

After thinking about it if they want to have a shoot off you can't say NO. You have to let them go at it by ATA rules. If both say no to a shoot off then the club is off the hook to have one and have to settle things another way.

 

[MTA Tom]

Unruly is correct.

The ATA rules in Section IV, H, 2, say: "All ties whenever possible shall be shot off and in such a manner, as shoot management shall designate...."

Please note that IV, H, 1 specifically allows carryovers to the next LIKE event in singles and doubles events (and handicap in certain circumstances), as a form of shootoff.

Shootoffs are required, unless all the tied shooters agree to an alternative.

 

[lumper]

What about that part that says "as shoot management shall designate"? If they state it that there aint gonna be no shootoffs when the publish the event aint they allowed to do that under the shoot management shall designate part of the guideline book?

 

[Edward Turner]

lumper,

I read that as a continuation of "....shall be shot off...", meaning that they may designate the format of the shoot off. Miss-and-out, etc.

Still, I don't think it is required as long as they inform the shooters beforehand or they all agree to an alternative.

I do feel that the club short changes the shooters when they don't allow for a shoot off. My opinion.

 

[lumper]

Personally there is no winner until one is determined and it is a chicken shit cheap ass thing if there is not a bonafide winner determined by how they shoot.

It would make me think and feel that the club only wants the money and thank you for shooting now go away.

 

[MTA Tom]

Former ATA President Dave Kaiser discussed this issue in detail in his July, 2005, "House Rules" column in Trap&Field.

His conclusion: Shootoffs are required unless prevented by "a thunderstorm, power outage or something as simple as darkness with no lighted fields....Carryovers to like events later in the program do in fact provide one method of shooting off....In such a case where every shooter involved in the tie is still on the grounds, is given the opportunity to agree to some other method of settling the tie, and does agree, that would suffice. However, even under these circumstances, I believe it does not follow the intent of the rule."

 

[phirel]

The wording of the rule might leave a little wiggle room but the intent of the rule is clear. I suggest that the club allow tied shooters to shoot off. If I am involved in a shoot off, I like to flip. If that is not possible, I usually do not stay around for the shoot off. I would rather save my shells and time than win a trophy that is of little use to me.

It might not be good for public relations, but there is nothing that prevents a club charging the participants in a shoot off for the targets the club throws. I have never known a club to do this and I suspect the club would lose in the long run, but it is a possibility.

Pat Ireland

 

[fssberson]

Darkness is our problem and the sun in shooters eyes from 4:00 PM to 6:00 PM. We will shoot off for handicap events, but it is the singles 100 straight that has no good solution. We will take the longest run from the beginning for scores under 100. We will not have a like event after the one singles event... everything else will be handicap. We are trying to accommodate our state and ATA organizations by holding this event with two traps [two more traps are in the planning stages]. A larger facility canceled out. Gosh, I hope Thumper doesn't show up... we just don't need attitutdes. Thanks for your suggestions. Fred

 

[MTA Tom]

Suggestions, Fred? The ATA rules are clear, as is your intention to ignore them.

Tom Stewart, President

Michigan Trapshooting Association

 

[Hap MecTweaks]

Fred, if this is a club shoot, set the targets at a tougher angle, maybe add a tad more speed, has a drastic effect on all those 100 straighs. You may not have to worry about a shoot-off then? Hap

OOPSIES!! I just re-read your initial post. ATA rules!

 

[fssberson]

Mr. Stewart: It is not our intention to ignore the rules. It is our intention to support the local state and national orginization within our ability. A more supportive attitude would be a real help. I am trying to anticipate events and have a solution before they catch us off guard. Fred

 

[W.P.T.]

What ever you choose to do must be in the program or the rules in the ATA rule book prevail ... If what you choose to do is not to the liking of the shooters they just won't show up and then you will have a definate answer to the question ...

I never flipped a coin unless I was flipping coins in a match all day, then to break a continual tie we'd do Rock, Paper, Scissors or arm wrestle if the guy was smaller than me or it was a female that I tied with ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

[MTA Tom]

WPT

You said, "What ever you choose to do must be in the program or the rules in the ATA rule book prevail."

That's simply untrue. In an ATA registered shoot, the ATA rules prevail, unless the ATA rules are silent, or allow alternatives.

 

[W.P.T.]

MTA Tom,

I will not argue the point but we used to set the guidelines for the shoots we hosted and if there was a variation from the ATA rules it was usually accepted as long as it was in the program (in bold print, by the way) ... The clubs rules prevail and it is stated as such in the programs when there was a difference, but still fair to all ... When I inquired of the ATA, they said what ever works and it did ... WPT ... (YAC) ...