If he flinches on the practice trap it is up to the club to decide how many he is allowed.
In ATA he is allowed 2 FTF per sub event, this includes flinches.
After 2 the targets are lost.

Its All good
West

 

In ATA he is allowed 2 FTF per sub event, this includes flinches.
After 2 the targets are lost.

That's very generous of the ATA! I know many guys who would benefit from it.

In NSSA, any target not fired upon due to the shooter is a balk, and scored as lost. To include putting shell in wrong barrel, safety being on, etc.

So on a flinch, you usually see a guy make a second effort on the bird.

 

If shooting registered, a flinch is considered an allowable failure to fire. You get 2 FTF in each sub event. Each one after the second FTF is a lost target.

It's pretty easy to tell if it's a true flinch, as he would involuntarily jerk/move/step/fall/faceplant forward.

 

ATA rules are provided above.

Could he be fake flinching, I suppose. It isn't that uncommon for people battling flinch problem to flinch 3-6 times per round though. I bet he is an old guy that loves shooting and is torn up about all those flinches because he can't get it fixed. I wouldn't report him and would welcome him on my squad - especially if you're shooting just for fun.

 

Also, be aware that when someone has a bad flinch, it happens much more than "once in a great while", unfortunately.

 

If he's flinching & not shooting it is called an FTF (Falior to Fire)...
You get 2 per round, after that it is a lost bird.
Type in FTF and you might find a good thread or 6 about them.

 

The old bugger needs to try a release trigger if its as bad as you say...
I can't shoot singles or caps with a pull trigger. Sometimes I gotta shoot 3 times at a target before my gun goes off... They are way out there by then! LOL

 

The old bugger needs to try a release trigger if its as bad as you say...
I can't shoot singles or caps with a pull trigger. Sometimes I gotta shoot 3 times at a target before my gun goes off... They are way out there by then! LOL

Release triggers are not a cure for flinching. The gun still goes boom.

 

Ok

 

Brain to trigger finger disconnection is my problem.
I really don't flinch that bad, I just can't freakin pull the trigger...

 

Amen it is a "cure" for a lot of shooters if it takes care of the flinch.
Whether the flinch is a visual, mental or some other stimulus.

Glad it works for you.

Its All Good
West

 

My flinch is unusual. I get excited, nervous, tense,or cause unknown and I unconsciously push/lean forward. When I am moving forward I cannot pull the trigger back. I got lucky and did it during a clinic and had it all explained. I am told that a release will not help. Having it explained to me makes me calmer when it happens and I am hoping that it will decrease as right now it can happen 2/25. Nora says "you get your 2 ftf, use them. "Just had firing pins replaced last week and my gun is still getting misfires. The 2 together makes things interesting.

 

Used to shoot with an older gent that had a record book flinch, even using a release trigger he couldn't let go when he wanted and usually broke the bird just off the ground. I've seen a lot of scorers call his bird lost before he fired the gun. While he was fighting bone cancer I shot with him when he broke a 98, with a LOT of late shots.

Whenever we talk about flinchers Gordon's name always comes up. Miss the old guy.

Pat

 

I'm thing the FTF rule came about as a result of some shooters having a habit of turning down certain targets that they did not want to shoot at.
Is that correct?

 

I have never shot with a Big Dog, nor have I attended any big shoots. Just curious if anyone has seen this FTF rule enforced or not at a big ATA event? Thanks.

 

Absolutely enforced. I have and do shoot with a fellow who has a flinching issue. He even makes sure the score keeper marks his FTF's. He will call it on himself.

I have seen many flinching, gun malfunctions, shell not going off, etc. and they were all enforced during ATA events. Scorecard marked F1, then F2 then lost.

I even won a shoot off because my competitor had 3 FTF's and the 3rd one cost him the championship.

 

sure it is enforced.

 

Release triggers are not a cure for flinching. The gun still goes boom.

It "cured" me.

 

I've been shooting trap for a long time and I can say that I've never seen anyone intentionally turn down a hard angle unless it was an illegal bird. I have seen refusals for fast/slow birds and uncalled for birds due to hog callers.

Pat

 

I was lucky enough to get a flinch shooting trap several years ago. Didn't bother me much shooting skeet or 5 - stand. I went to a release trigger in trap gun and it pretty much eliminated the flinch. I shot some skeet Sunday for the first time this season. It was pretty ugly. Had the flinches really bad. Second round was considerably better. I was shooting a 20 gauge, so recoil was not an issue. I believe my flinching is target acquisition. If you have never had a flinch, I hope you never get it. It really isn't much fun.

 

Ok

 

his name doesn't happen to be Tony does it?

"Tony" is a well seasoned shooter at a club I used to shoot at, he very rarely shot at a right hand target, whether practice or league he would pass on them.

 

Pardon my ignorance but I have to ask: Why are any flinches forgiven without their recorded as lost targets?

When a shooter raises his head and misses, it is a lost target. The same is true when he arm swings the gun and misses, along with other shooting form or fun fit issues, which cause lost targets.

So why shooting errors, which cause flinches?

Please educate me.

 

Pardon my ignorance but I have to ask: Why are any flinches forgiven without their recorded as lost targets?

When a shooter raises his head and misses, it is a lost target. The same is true when he arm swings the gun and misses, along with other shooting form or fun fit issues, which cause lost targets.

So why shooting errors, which cause flinches?

Please educate me.

Rollin, I don't know, but assumed they are "forgiven" when the shooter doesn't actually shoot, vice the instances you comments on...when the shooter actually does shoot....and poorly, I might add!!

But I sort of agree with you, as I am used to the NSSA rules. If you don't fire because of something you did, it is lost.

 

Yes, poor vision or eye/hand coordination are both shooter shortcomings. If I shoot with distorted lenses, dirty glasses, broken bones or pulled muscles, they are my personal problems, my shortcomings and should not be forgiven and result in free targets.

 

Every sport has its rules, we don't need to agree with them but we should abide.
If the NSSA rules suit you better have at it.

A flinch wasn't always forgiven, but it is now.
It simplified things on the field no longer need to prove a malfunction etc.
Kept the scorer in his chair and kept the squad shooting.

To Rollin and Clay Puppy, you don't shoot registered targets this rule should have no affect on you.

Its All Good

West

 

I DO shoot registered, and I agree with Rollin and Claypoppy. Guess I better hide in the bomb shelter with Claypoppy. I think the rule is abused, and overused when it comes to flinches. If you have a TRUE FTF, because of mechanical failure, or ammunition problem, fine, but not for a flinch. I have had a couple FTF's in my shooting career, but it was an ammo issue, not my failure to pull the trigger. I also developed a bad flinch a couple years ago. I went to a release and cured it for the most part. It is still possible to flinch with a release, and I do once in a while, although very rarely. More of a disconnect between eyes, brain, and finger actually.

 

Last week at our league shoot my daughter instead of a 46 got a 41 due to FTFs...
That was a hell of a way for her to learn that rule!!!

Oh yea, just let it be known that she didn't turn the targets down on purpose...
She was "flinching" & couldn't hit the trigger.
This week I taught her to "shoot again" at them...

 

Oh yea, just let it be known that she didn't turn the targets down on purpose...
She was "flinching" & couldn't hit the trigger.
This week I taught her to "shoot again" at them...

Just curious how old is she, and how does her hand measure up compared to the grip of the gun? I know my oldest boy, even at 13, still has some difficulty getting his finger on the trigger when he shoots a K-80. The 20 ga 11-87 sportster not so bad.

 

What we call a flinch may be caused by some sort of medical/physical condition, perhaps brought on by age that prevents the shooter from being able to pull the trigger. For me it’s pinched nerves in left arm and hand (I’m a LH shooter) that has caused three fingers of my hand to become numb. It’s not unusual to not be able to pull the trigger on a target or two every couple of rounds. It’s embarrassing to have my friends, who know I would not cheat if my life depended on it, make comments like “hey, don’t shoot if you don’t like it”.
I’ve been trying for a year to get surgery to correct the problem (VA) during which time my singles average has dropped from A to D. I’ve considered giving up trap, but as a person coming up on 79 next month and living alone, I know it would be a big step towards a nursing home.
Most old timers are not trying to “get away” with something to win your trophy; they’re just trying to hang in there for a reason far more important than winning a couple of boxes of shells.
Try to cut them a little slack; your turn may be coming. Just my two cents

 

Try to cut them a little slack; your turn may be coming.

Thanks for that!
A lot of guys out there think it's BS, but it is real...

 

I'm just curious, has anyone ever seen a flinch/no shot in a shootoff of a major event?

 

No, cause flinchers never make it to the shootoff. :18::18::18:

 

John, she is 14 & I don't think gunfit is the issue. She is shooting an 1100 with a short LOP stock.
She just shot a 50 straight (her first) with the gun with the pull trigger in it, 'cause I just got done with doubles on a different field and forgot to put her release back in it...
She, for some reason now has a hard time pulling at that critical moment, she never had that before.
This is something I haven't heard of yet & I'm sure the release haters would love this $hit... LOL
Last fall one day, I asked if she wanted to go outside & try my 1100 and see what she thought of the release trigger. She fondeled the gun a little and I found a thinner butt pad in a drawer and swapped it out with the factory one. It fit a lot better so she said "sure, why not"?
Well, she missed the first bird I threw, mostly 'cause she didn't get the shot off right. Never trying a release yet...
I talked her through it a little more, then she smashed every bird after that... 24 out of 25! She pretty much kept that gun for herself from that moment on!!!
But now, she acts like me and the rest of the flinchers when a pull trigger is in whatever gun she may be shooting! Whats with that???