Good Job Ron..Good to know that you are back on the pages to help us out. Thank You too, Neil...Odie

 

Those two videos prove how important it is to keep the rubber inserts in trap machines pliable and soft to have a better grip on the targets edge as they're launched. The more RPMs the better. Thanks Ron!!

Hap

 

In the second video where you were to guess how much the rotation slowed, what did you guys think?

 

Try this

 

RickN, the rotations have slowed dramatically but my question was why the target was wobbling near it's peak? The very last target in the second video wasn't wobbling as it neared the ground as the other two were.

Hap

 

I thought the rotation had slowed by well over half. I noticed what I thought was a wobble also.

 

There was a download problem which has now been fixed. Follow the directions in red. Download the video to your own "downloads" folder and open it with the Windows viewer or Quicktime 7 on a MAC.

View both videos with the kind of viewers which go frame-by-frame so you can count the number of frames which picture a single turn, that is, puts the white line in the same place a revolution later. What you will be doing is using the right arrow and counting how many times you have to hit it to get the white line to the same place a revolution later. If it takes about 18 clicks, you have it right . . .

Sorry for the confusion.

Neil

 

Now if anyone actually downloads those videos and then counts the turns, he or she will see that the spin of the targets _does not_ slow on the way to the stake more than between zero and three percent. Said another way, a revolution takes 18 (1/600 second) frames at the start. And at the end a revolution takes between 18 and 18 1/2 frames. That means the target is spinning about the same at the start and at the end.

Try it!

Neil

 

It appears no one will actually look at the videos in the way - with the right viewer - they can get something out of them. So just this once I'll show you what you missed.

Here are photos from the traphouse.

Frame minus 1, before you can any white at all.

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Frame zero, just a touch of white

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In frame 1 the bird has rotated about 20 degrees and you can see a lot of white.

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Frame 2

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Frame 3

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Frame 4

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Frame 5

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Frame 9

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Frame 13

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Frame 17

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Frame 18 About like frame zero, one full rotation.

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Frame 19, well past one full rotation

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So I hope we can agree that a rotation takes 18 frames when the bird is early in flight, still close by the traphouse.

Neil

 

Now we will do the same thing from the stake.

Frame -1, before we can see any white.

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Frame zero; Look and you can see just a trace of white on the very right side of the rim of the target.

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Frame 1, more white

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Frame 2

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Frame 16

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Frame 17, still no white

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Frame 18, about like frame zero


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Frame 19, well past one complete rotation

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So that's it. In the flight from traphouse to stake, the spin of trap targets slows to a degree which is barely perceptible.

Neil

 

so the targets spin at a rate of 33 revolutions per second while traveling at a speed of 61 fps. or about one full revolution per each 2 feet traveled. does that sound right?

 

Cool! back in the day, I think I could see the spin. Now I am happy to see the target.

 

Very interesting topic and good work. Any opinions as to whether different machines impart different spin rates, such as do the present day machines that use a wiper spin the target more or less than the older machines that had the wiper and surface as a single unit as on the Winchester 1577 machine? This subject has been debated at different times and some older shooters think the Winchester machines spin the target more than PAT or GMV machines.

Dave

 

How many RPM do they actually spin? How many RPM should they spin if all is perfect?


Gary Bryant
Dr.longshot

 

I wouldn't think that any other machine would make the target spin any faster or slower. If they did, it would because of the velocity of the target(or the machine's arm) being faster of slower. As mentioned above, a bad, glazed-up rubber on the throwing arm could cause the target to skid which in turn could slow the RPM.

Targets set according to the ATA specs...height and speed, should all spin the same RPM, regardless of what machine throws them.

Maybe I'm all wrong....

Doug

 

GunDr., the old Winchester hand-sets put more spin on targets than those currently used. The clay stayed on the arm for a longer distance and they seemed to stabilize in wind farther out too. Vaseline on that rubber insert would throw knuckleballs better than a major league knuckleballer!

Hap

 

you know it is always so easy to sit back and second guess somebody elses work. So far I'll say great job, no one has ever brought this to the public. Now the nit picky side of me will question the friction content of the white stripe on the very surface to be contacting the arm. Yes it shows up great in the video but it makes one wonder how much is lost/ gained in the surface friction difference? Truly a great effort, but I think it (filming)would be more precise if the contact surface of the target hadn't been altered. Sorry years of R & D at work. and knowing how fast the target spins doesn't make any of us a better shooter. great effort Neil and Ron! Thank you

 

Twinbirds, thanks, and that is a perfectly fair concern. And it's also why I thanked MIA (Jack Swanson) for his painting tip.

A traparm does not contact the bird on the rim. Above and inside of the rim is what's called "the driving band" and that's where the rubber meets the bird. It's the first ring above the rim. I wanted to keep paint off the driving band for exactly the reason you cited and had planned a painting jig to be constructed of wood with a little shelf on the back and so on. It would have had a cutout of about 2/3 of a bird width, and the cutout was to be just tall enough for the rim (only) to slip through, thus screening the driving band from sprayed paint.

I described all of that to Jack two weeks ago at a shoot at Metro. He thought for a moment and suggested:

"Why don't you simply paint them still stacked up and just throw the top one away?"

Now that's what I call a good idea!

Neil

 

Quartering, while, as you say, the bird is going about two feet through the air for every revolution at the start, by the end of its flight it is traveling a lot slower but the spin has not changed. So by the stake the bird is only traveling maybe a foot per revolution, probably less.

Neil

 

Hap, I've always wondered how people know, and they are so confident they do, that

"the old Winchester hand-sets put more spin on targets than those currently used."

I'm not aware of anyone already doing what Ron and I have done here. So, I wonder, how do they know? Handsets and short arms are on our testing schedule but there are other things to work out first, for example:

"Do different brands spin at different speeds?"

"What is the relationship between launch-speed and spin-speed?"

Readers here might like to make some predictions along those lines before they see the next installment.

Also, I think if you take time to download the clips as advised in red on Ron's website and watch them through a proper viewer (Windows video viewer or Quicktime 7) you will see that there is no wobble.

Neil

 

Hap, I've always wondered how people know, and they are so confident they do, that"

"the old Winchester hand-sets put more spin on targets than those currently used."

Neil, in addition to my personal observations shooting both types in wind, Neal Crausbay posted a similar statement here a good while back. He worked with those old traps enough that he should know? Wouldn't a target on a longer arm rubber insert impart more RPMs with it's longer ride?

I'd guess that the amount of force necessary to increase distances thrown would also increase the RPMs in addition. The old stick (golf club) target throwers stabilize targets pretty well if thrown correctly. Even those stabilize better if thrown harder, correctly.

Set White Flyers to land at a given distance, say 50 yards, then change brands of targets. Not all brands of targets are created equal either when it comes to distances thrown. RPMs? I dunno bout that aspect using different brands of targets.

I'll look forward to your next series of tests and thanks for doing all the work too!

Hap

 

We found that one can get more spin and better stability by 'siping' the rubber on the arm about 20 degrees right of vertical. Was proven using a hi-speed bullet camera on loan from Federal Cartridge. We used that style of rubber rail on the traps we manufactured at the time (Outers). The siping would cushion and grip the target better during acceleration. This minor modification can be done on any flight rail on any machine.

Dick Gries

 

Up for any who missed it.

 

Dick Gries, any idea of a percentage of improvement in spin and stability adding that "siping" was compared to a Pat trap? Do you have any pictures you could share? Thanks.

Hap

 

Thanks for the work Neil.