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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
New to the forum, just testing the waters/community, I've never, in my 18 years on earth, understood paying over $1000 on a shotgun.... I could sorta understand if it was a nasty 3-1/2 mag semi auto or maybe a neater semi auto 10 gauge, but not the run-of-the-mill over under or single barrel. Let me give some back ground to this, I and my family are VERY avid gun collectors. I myself have already purchased some bigger guns, IE savage 110 in 338 lapua, mossberg mvp varmit in 308 and a 243 Ruger Mark 2 vt. The funnier part is in my county in NY, i cant use a single one of those guns to hunt. Target practice is even frowned upon at ranges with that 338. But back to my point. for the past 8 years, ive been using my 11th birthday present my gramps got me... a Stoeger condor.... with 12 and 20, 28 inch barrels im not one to brag about accuracy, but my scores NEVER drop below 23. What I dont get is when i go out with my squad, the guy to my right's gun costs more than half my house... then next to him.... that one costs my WHOLE house. (Perazzi's) the guy to my left has a Kreighoff... and besides him... a bt-99 fully custom. I do shoot about 200 rounds a week. so itd warrant me buying a nicer gun around $1250. Ive shot some BT-99's and some Kreighoffs. cannot stand them besides the high rib so i can actually see the clay. I pick on all of em alll the time... ya know the "At that freakin price, the gun better break all the damn clays for me jesus" or the "IS THAT A SCRATCH" to the guys who own Perazzi's. (its soooo funny to see their face) I even get dirty looks from time to time when i whip out the good ole stoeger. (if youve read this far, you deserve a award) But As good as I am with the Stoeger, theres always this feeling like thats the only part holding me back from back to back 25's. I have my eye on 2 guns, the Tristar TT-15 Over under for $1250 or the Beretta a400 xcel Parallel $1500. I know my info pretty well, however im a rifle guy.... I do shoot on the travel league from time to time. But my bniggest thing is dual use, I do goose hunt quite a bit. thats where the semi-auto would rock. but it just doest seem like a trap gun compared to the Tristar. Just looking for some input from a forum designed around my dilemma lol. Thanks!
 

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Shoot it before you buy it. You need to find a gun that works for you, before
you spend your money. HMB
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Shoot it before you buy it. You need to find a gun that works for you, before
you spend your money. HMB
Thats exactly how i feel, however most guys at my club are less than willing to loan a 18 year old kid their $2-3 grand shotgun.
 

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The difference with your Condor and a Perazzi...your Condor will never last a lifetime as the Perazzi will. When you start putting 6k - 10k rounds a year through a gun, you'll then understand. The Condor is a throw-away shotgun. No rebuilding it...not worth the cost.
 

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Thats exactly how i feel, however most guys at my club are less than willing to loan a 18 year old kid their $2-3 grand shotgun.
Find another club with a better class of people. :)
I hand over my Benelli Supersport, a $2k shotgun, whenever someone ask me if they can try it.

You can also try visiting State shoots, they will sometimes have vendor there who will either loan or let you try their shotguns for free, in hope that you will buy it. I believe you can do this at the Grand too with many vendors there loaning out their shotguns.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The difference with your Condor and a Perazzi...your Condor will never last a lifetime as the Perazzi will. When you start putting 6k - 10k rounds a year through a gun, you'll then understand. The Condor is a throw-away shotgun. No rebuilding it...not worth the cost.
If I did my math right, I go every weekend except 2 out of 52 in a year, thats 50. I shoot somewhere between 100-200 rounds a weekend. lets keep it 100 so its easy, this is my 6th year. lets toss some missed weekend so lets say 45 weekends a year, 100 rounds each weekend, for 6 years. 45*100=4,500 and 4500*6=27,000 minimum, Thast with me using 100 rounds a week and skipping a lot more weekends than I usually do. Just picked up the parts for a complete internal rebuild, DIY would cost $177.98 no shipping. Lets toss 2 new chokes in there, I can only use 1 barrel anyways. Thats $67.12 with shipping. If something major goes wrong, new wood all the way around costs $169.98, a whole new reciever... costs $288. Hell, I could probably buy a whole stoeger condor, with extra ammo, for less than itd cost you t oship that gun to god only knows where. With Insurance, packing materials, FFL fees alone... thats easily $325 right there. There isnt really saving money with those guns, you cant take as perazzi to joe blow down the road in a gun shop and tell him you wanna change the sights or remove a mid bead.... I know I'm young and naive, but holy crap...... thats a crap ton of money just for little things when you move up to that class of shotgun. Just gonna toss this in here. A whole stoeger rebuild from local gun smith was quoted under $275
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Find another club with a better class of people. :)
I hand over my Benelli Supersport, a $2k shotgun, whenever someone ask me if they can try it.

You can also try visiting State shoots, they will sometimes have vendor there who will either loan or let you try their shotguns for free, in hope that you will buy it. I believe you can do this at the Grand too with many vendors there loaning out their shotguns.
I have considered a new club, just to much hastle to find one thatll be farther away. As for the state shoots, is there a website where theyre posted? Im in NY And after some googling, the main thing that comes up is other gun clubs. Id love to go to some of these!
 

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M4tch3d player: You seem pleased to look down your nose at quality competition shotguns (Krieghoff and Perazzi) that it appears you have little knowledge of what drives price in a great shotgun. Continue to shoot your Condor or rush out and buy a TT-15 and I'm sure your learning curve will increase significantly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
M4tch3d player: You seem pleased to look down your nose at quality competition shotguns (Krieghoff and Perazzi) that it appears you have little knowledge of what drives price in a great shotgun. Continue to shoot your Condor or rush out and buy a TT-15 and I'm sure your learning curve will increase significantly.
Thats what I dont get, What makes the cost so high? I understand build quality is huge, i am completely amazed at the craftsmanship, but what is up with the price, if, no matter what, the gun should be modified in the end to fit the main shooter? Now i know its one thing to turn a chunk of metal and a standing tree into one of these beautiful guns, but I have never, in my life seen someone get one of those guns and have it fit them so well that they go out and even get high 20's their first round. Its just tough to wrap my mind around the fact that people go out and buy a $4-5 thousand dollar gun, and some dont even let it get home, they send it to a fit and finish expert and have them modify it? is the fit of a gun that important? I could understand comfort, but youd think someone would just make the LEGO version of a trap gun kinda like the AR series. anyone can build them to do anything, all for around $2000. Is it the craftsmanship youre paying for after a while or is it the name?
 

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Thats what I dont get, What makes the cost so high? I understand build quality is huge, i am completely amazed at the craftsmanship, but what is up with the price, if, no matter what, the gun should be modified in the end to fit the main shooter? Now i know its one thing to turn a chunk of metal and a standing tree into one of these beautiful guns, but I have never, in my life seen someone get one of those guns and have it fit them so well that they go out and even get high 20's their first round. Its just tough to wrap my mind around the fact that people go out and buy a $4-5 thousand dollar gun, and some dont even let it get home, they send it to a fit and finish expert and have them modify it? is the fit of a gun that important? I could understand comfort, but youd think someone would just make the LEGO version of a trap gun kinda like the AR series. anyone can build them to do anything, all for around $2000. Is it the craftsmanship youre paying for after a while or is it the name?
Trap shooting is ALL about gun fit. You asked,I answered. Ask ANY professional and you will get the same answer; GUN FIT,GUN FIT GUN FIT
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Trap shooting is ALL about gun fit. You asked,I answered. Ask ANY professional and you will get the same answer; GUN FIT,GUN FIT GUN FIT
I hear that everywhere. However everyones version of what that means changes. I know what lop is, however how in the world do you know whats best? is it feel? is there an actual measurable way to figure it out? But besides LOP, thats all im positive on. After doing about 10 minutes of googling, theres 1 guy who refers to barrel lenght, and compares it to balancing the center of gravity using regular scales. another guy refering to trigger pull, and the last refers to head placement... Went from oh this will be simple to rocket science real quick
 

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I hear that everywhere. However everyones version of what that means changes. I know what lop is, however how in the world do you know whats best? is it feel? is there an actual measurable way to figure it out? But besides LOP, thats all im positive on.
You don't have to spend 4-5k....you could have somrthing like a Rem 90t fitted for less than 3k at most...and it is near bulletproof...You have money tied up in rifles you say you can't really shoot. Lot easier to find a place to shoot trap isn't it ?
 

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Ultimately if you are semi-serious about competing in the clay target sports you want to put the best tool for the job in your hands that you can afford. SO with that being said a shooter has to try as many different shotguns as possible to make a educated decision on what will work best for your budjet.
1.Keep in mind many of the shooters you see with a higher end gun have made a lifetime investment and probably have worked very hard
to afford what they are shooting. They too have more than likely spent a lot of time getting the details correct on what they feel will work
best for them.
2.Excluding cosmetics the higher quality the metal work/adjustability/if it is a combo set or a SBT/Removable--Adjustable Trigger ect. will drive price and of course where the shotgun is made---labor costs ect. will drive price.
3. Many high end clay target shotguns are built with the volume shooter in mind, so will easily hold up to 20-30k shells a year.
4. There are many great values used you just have to explore the options see whats out there,many shooters WILL let you try their shotgun
as long as you are sincere--respectful and shoot new shells thru their gun(good etiquette).
5. Do some research and you will find that there are great clay target shooters that are out there that shoot all types of shotguns,
ref. on TS.com South Dakota Trap Family(Barthalow's) Top of the game shoot Brownings and there are a whole host of other shooters
that will give you valuable input that are excellent shooters using just about everything.
6.Speaking for myself I have owned and competed with pretty much every major and minor brand of clay target shotgun on the market(I enjoy shotguns and custom projects and learning)and I can tell you this for a fact, if you are going to be in the clay target sports and plan on doing any type of volume shooting investing in a quality clay target shotgun will pay dividends in the long run in function and durability. I fall into the high vol. year round shooter and currently shoot and compete with a Ljutic Mono Gun/ Ljutic One Touch/Blaser Super Sport/ these are excellent quality shotguns and all three of those do not combine for even a down payment on a house ;) When you look at the the non-engraved--non up-grade wood versions of K-Gun Trap Specials--Perazzi MX-Guns--Blaser F-3s
Ceasar G. summit combos and others on the market you will find high volume--lifetime shotguns from $4K to $15K so when you get that type of quality and the cost is broken up over say 20-years or more they represent superior value.
7. You stated that you never shoot less than a 23 shooting 200 rounds a week, that sounds like you are doing well and have potential esp. if half or more of those rounds are from handicap yardages. Welcome to ts.com George
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
You don't have to spend 4-5k....you could have somrthing like a Rem 90t fitted for less than 3k at most...and it is near bulletproof...You have money tied up in rifles you say you can't really shoot. Lot easier to find a place to shoot trap isn't it ?
even then, 3k on a gun that only does 1 thing. thats still a chunk of change. there is no hunting with it or using a slug barrel for some range lol. only clays, and if I do recall, the 90t is single barrel? that means not only is it clays only, its trap clays only. Its just tough, my max budget would be $1500 and thats really pushin it to. id love a fitted gun, but i know thats still a long ways away especially since im still growing lol.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Ultimately if you are semi-serious about competing in the clay target sports you want to put the best tool for the job in your hands that you can afford. SO with that being said a shooter has to try as many different shotguns as possible to make a educated decision on what will work best for your budjet.
1.Keep in mind many of the shooters you see with a higher end gun have made a lifetime investment and probably have worked very hard
to afford what they are shooting. They too have more than likely spent a lot of time getting the details correct on what they feel will work
best for them.
2.Excluding cosmetics the higher quality the metal work/adjustability/if it is a combo set or a SBT/Removable--Adjustable Trigger ect. will drive price and of course where the shotgun is made---labor costs ect. will drive price.
3. Many high end clay target shotguns are built with the volume shooter in mind, so will easily hold up to 20-30k shells a year.
4. There are many great values used you just have to explore the options see whats out there,many shooters WILL let you try their shotgun
as long as you are sincere--respectful and shoot new shells thru their gun(good etiquette).
5. Do some research and you will find that there are great clay target shooters that are out there that shoot all types of shotguns,
ref. on TS.com South Dakota Trap Family(Barthalow's) Top of the game shoot Brownings and there are a whole host of other shooters
that will give you valuable input that are excellent shooters using just about everything.
6.Speaking for myself I have owned and competed with pretty much every major and minor brand of clay target shotgun on the market(I enjoy shotguns and custom projects and learning)and I can tell you this for a fact, if you are going to be in the clay target sports and plan on doing any type of volume shooting investing in a quality clay target shotgun will pay dividends in the long run in function and durability. I fall into the high vol. year round shooter and currently shoot and compete with a Ljutic Mono Gun/ Ljutic One Touch/Blaser Super Sport/ these are excellent quality shotguns and all three of those do not combine for even a down payment on a house ;) When you look at the the non-engraved--non up-grade wood versions of K-Gun Trap Specials--Perazzi MX-Guns--Blaser F-3s
Ceasar G. summit combos and others on the market you will find high volume--lifetime shotguns from $4K to $15K so when you get that type of quality and the cost is broken up over say 20-years or more they represent superior value.
7. You stated that you never shoot less than a 23 shooting 200 rounds a week, that sounds like you are doing well and have potential esp. if half or more of those rounds are from handicap yardages. Welcome to ts.com George
I prefer the 25 handicap, but the club is pretty free flowing with it. The main thing im looking for is dual use, either in other clay sports or with very very light goose or duck hunting, itd have to have btoh those things to warrant me dropping anything over $1000 on a shotgun.
 

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Keep in mind when you mention cost of a purpose built shotgun for the clay target sports they are design to do one thing well at whatever price point they address that is to compete in the clay target games. If it is multi purpose that you want then your really should look at some of the better quality semi's out there including maybe even a used Beretta 391 or 390 as you can modify alot and have a lot of fun with them.
So you say you prefer the 25 yard line handicap and you never shoot less than a 23? That is very good shooting for sure and you definitely have potential.
 

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even then, 3k on a gun that only does 1 thing. thats still a chunk of change. there is no hunting with it or using a slug barrel for some range lol. only clays, and if I do recall, the 90t is single barrel? that means not only is it clays only, its trap clays only. Its just tough, my max budget would be $1500 and thats really pushin it to. id love a fitted gun, but i know thats still a long ways away especially since im still growing lol.
Then get a Rem. 870 trap model...you can be fitted and all for less than 1.5k. I grew up in So.Cal. and even 35 yrs. ago it was hard to find a place to enjoyably shoot a centerfire rifle. Spend your money where you can enjoy it most often. You'll soon find you don't have time to pursue many different hobbies anyways....
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Keep in mind when you mention cost of a purpose built shotgun for the clay target sports they are design to do one thing well at whatever price point they address that is to compete in the clay target games. If it is multi purpose that you want then your really should look at some of the better quality semi's out there including maybe even a used Beretta 391 or 390 as you can mod. then a lot and have a lot of fun with them.
So you say you prefer the 25 yard line handicap and you never shoot less than a 23? That is very good shooting for sure and you definitely have potential.
The worst part is 25's are so rare, i just kinda expect to miss at least one lol, I have looked at and considered the al391 teknys, the hardest part is finding one for sale thats not been already customized. As for certain types of semi autos, what would be the main differences between a factory skeet semi auto and a factory trap semiauto. besides chokes and weight, i cant see much differences. Beretta has the a400 xcel in parallel target and sporting, What would be a major dofference betnween the teknys and either one of the xcels? besides the high rib. as to which im banking on getting a custom one and a custom comb.
 
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