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Discussion Starter #1
Gentlemen and ladies who shoot from longer handicap yardage...I need some help. I am just recently back into ATA shooting and am still at 21 yards...I don't notice much difference there over the 16 yard line. But I am shooting some money shoots and have had to back up to 24 and even 27 yards and I am shooting deplorable scores there. What am I doing wrong? Given that I will be shooting the same gun, unadjusted, how do I compensate for added yardage? Do I give the target more lead? (In the sight picture.) Do I allow for more or less float on the bird? Should I adjust my hold point on "Pull!" ? What should I use as a rule of thumb as I back up from 21 yards? Thanks,
Martinpicker (Jack Farrow)
 

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1 thing that gave me fits as I gained yardage was that the further back you go the fewer true straight aways there are. I kept missing these damn straight things & then finally I noticed, as the flew away unharmed, that they were actually quartering just a little. Once I figured this out I my scores came up & I started gaining yardage again. Shoot at the leading edge of these little vermin! One of the problems (and there were many) I had once I got to the 27 was I kept trying to shoot at the leading edge & when I did get a true straight away, I would end up shooting in front of it. Takes time to sort this stuff out in your head & make it work, but when it does....it's fun! I never changed my hold point & you don't have to give the hard left/right targets a whole lot more lead as long as you keep the gun swinging.
 

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Check Lyle's comments at the bottom of the "How to Teach Somebody to Shoot Trap" thread.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
All this is food for thought and I appreciate the advice. I am not capable of increasing my POI...don't have those adjustments on my gun and don't want them.
Shooting quicker only helps if I am correct in relation to the flight of the target. Should I adjust my sight picture/trigger timing? Thanks again, Jack
 

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I guess your only option is get beat or bend your barrel. I like it when Phil Kiner tells the story about a guy named Arnie Regier. He started putting stuff on his comb to raise his POI, the other shooters of the day swore that wasn't the reason he was beating them. Arnie is the reason the ATA added 2 more yards from the 25 to the 27. Good luck tell us how this works out. John 8703697
 

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What you need to do is get the gun shooting higher. You may not want those fancy adjustable gizmos ( a 4 way comb for example) but you can temporarily get some elevation adjustment by slapping a few layers of moleskin on the top of the comb where you face normally makes contact. This will get your rear sight (your eye) up a bit.

Don't let your mind wander into the false logic that this is a game of timing. See the target, shoot the target ... make the gun shoot where you are looking.
 

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I have very little experience with yardage, but it seems confusing to me. If you move back to the 27 yard marker and have the gun basically at the same flight plane (Float the bird) as 16 yard, it seems more logical that the shot would go higher above the actual POI at 44 yds. (27 yd.) than at 23 yds. (16 yd.). If your gun is shooting 60/40 at 16 yds., would it not be 100 % at the 27 yd. mark, with the same flight plane. The lead is rising through your point of aim. So , if this is so, would you not want your gun to shoot lower (Flat) instead of higher. Maybe an optical illusion. I do not know. Jon
 

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I should really stay out of this, but I make this point to Jon stl flyn... Yes you are right about the trajectory calculation, but wrong because lead is heavy. And while the target is still rising, lead is dropping (due to weight) as soon as it leaves your bbl.

And to Martinpicker, the same thing applies to your dilemma. if you choose to shoot a fixed comb gun with the same POI, the problem is that your shot has an additional 10 yards to drop at the same time the target is rising. So as you move back you need to "cover the bird" a bit more to compensate for the lead shot dropping as it flows to the rising target. If (when at the 27 or similar) you make an effort to "cover the target" you will see the target breaks become more conclusive.

Try "covering the bird" some.
 

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What MIA said is true, and its compounded by this fact:

Between the time the shot leaves your muzzle, and the time the shot gets to the target, the target has risen more, because it takes more time for the shot to get there from 27 than from 16.
 

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I am in the same crack you are in.I can shoot well at the 21 but I get up tight when I have a good score going , you know the competition thing.STUPID! I have found that I shoot really well when I say pull I quickly go to the target.QUICKLY!AND JUST LOOK AT THE BIRD AND PLULL THE TRIGGER.I HOLD A LITTLE LOWER GUN. I am back there with you so I am not an expert but it helps me.Don't slow down.

non expert
 

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I am going to echo what V10, MIA and timb99 have said. Because the ballistics of the pellets, they fly in a arc not a straight line, you have to compensate for the drop of the shot and the rise of the target. A couple of ways is with these adjustments that you don't want. Is it because they are intimidating to you due to not knowing how to properly adjust them?

An adjustable comb is your friend and can allow for POI adj rather quickly. Going back to the 24 if you raise your comb by a spacer, usually about 1/16", this will allow you to hold the same sight plane as you do on the 16 yard. However, in your case you don't have this so the other option is to "cover" the target. Meaning you must get in front of that target by moving your barrel ahead of the leading edge. Now in retrospect, hard rights or lefts still require a farther lead, regardless of POI, when trying to shoot these boogers at a longer yardage.

Bryan
 

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Romie. It works for you... but why? the answer is that you are using upward momentum of your gun bbl to achieve the higher POI or "covering the bird"

I do not care to argue whit the real experts and that is why I try and avoid these threads, but I can tell you that 9 times out of 10 the reason you struggle at longer distances is that you are shooting UNDER the target.

Kiner often suggests higher comb placement in this situation. He does it himself. Just add a spacer a see what happens. Or "COVER THE BIRD".
 

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At 40 yards, a 1/16th shim equals 2 5/8" of raised POI, so 1/8" equals 5 1/4".
It has been said that shot drops 4" at 40 yards. Do the math.

I shoot the same set up on singles as 27 yard handicap, but I shoot a faster shell on caps. Everyone's requirement may differ.

If the birds are really elevating, I may add a shim or 2. Your speed makes a difference too. I slow down for caps so I can be more smooth and precise.
 

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I hate to second Sandy's motion, but practice is the only way to get better.

If you try to remember all of this sage advice at the line, the bird will win every time!

TNCoach
 

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Well I happen to agree with "TRON". You will want a slightly flater shooting gun or a slightly lower hold point. Or lower your eye and get a tighter fig. 8 on your twin beads, and shoot the target with only a slight increase in lead. If a shotgun as a 4 inch rise at 13 yard POI test it is now about 8 inch rise at 32- 35 yards (l6 yard target) and now almost l6 inches at a 27 yard target. Even if you figure a 4 drop in shot at a 50-55 yard target that would be alot in 50 yards. That still over a foot higher. Even a ave. rifle round only drops 3-5 inchs or so at l00 yards. Some more,some less. In a 30 pattern that is something not to worry about. The reason most shooters shoot under a target is the same reason most shooters shoot behind a crossing target. They are stopping their gun when they pull the trigger. So like Tron said use a slightly longer lead and a slightly lower hold point. Faster shells will help only slightly in shooting behind a target. If that all that was needed you could shoot 0 lead on station 4 in skeet with a faster shell. Pratice will only help if you don't keep doing the same thing wrong over and over again. Now after you digest this just remember to stop thinking and just call pull when your on the line. Now figure out what works for you. Break-em all. Jeff
 
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