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Discussion Starter #1
Today was in the past the day we celebrated ROBERT E LEE AND STONEWALL JACKSON. I still do and I know other here do also. So Happy Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson Day to one and all.
 

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Auctioneer

Do you think every major City will name a street/Boulevard after those two famous southerners?

Will all federal employees get that day off, too?

Do all of Lee's and Jackson's descendants have gold teeth?

Our world is backwards, somehow.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
The world will do as it wants and so will I. I was bought up in the south and I will die in the south. When I was in school we remembers these two brave men on this day. The democRATs put MLK day on this day trying to drown out Robert E Lee' and Stonewall Jackson day. People in the south didn't like that act of disrespect to those two men. They could have put MLK on another day but didn't. To alot of people it was an act to deface the two men. Not right.
 

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Even more important, this is the 40th anniversary of Blazing Saddles.
 

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After the sealed MLK records are opened in a few years I do wonder what will happen to a national holiday for a communist......
 

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When thinking about Robert E. Lee we should remember that he was probably one of the greatest generals the US has ever produced. Graduated from West Point, commissioned as an officer in the US Army, swore to "defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic", etc., resigned that commission and his oath, and became the single person to cause more American deaths than any other.

He should have stayed home. I wish he had. A lot less Americans on both sides would have died and the Confederacy would still have lost.
 

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Those two chose the wrong side.

We gave them a chance. They chose wrong.

It happens.

We celebrate King day instead. Sorry.

You should have listened to Longstreet and freed the slaves THEN seceded from the Union. But you all didn't do that ether.

Happy Lee day.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
cbxchris, the problem I see is will this gov release ALL of the report or only the parts that will make him look good?

James344, you beat me to it. Lee wouldn't fight against his home state Va and thats why he sided with Va. You have to respect his beliefs and that he stood by them.
 

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cbxchris,

Who ever came up with the idea of Arlington becoming a national cemetery should have gotten a medal. It is reported that Lee never came back to live there, it is likely he did come back to look over the cemetery and the rows of graves that he could take personal responsibility for. I am sure it made the appropriate impression.

As for paying for Arlington, I personally think he was lucky he was allowed to go in peace. It is unlikely that any one but Lincoln would have done that.


James344,

Lee didn't have to fight against Virginia. All he had to do was stay home and let his slaves tend to the crops. Instead, he chose to resign from the US Army, break his oath at graduating from West Point and commissioning and to fight and kill Americans from the North and in the process cause the deaths of many Americans from the South. Still the greatest killer of Americans is history.

Aucioneer,

You said in reference to Lee:

"You have to respect his beliefs and that he stood by them."

Why?

If that is your only criteria, I would suggest that people standing by their beliefs would also include the largest percentage of individuals who have caused great harm to the world. They all "stood by their beliefs".

I suspect what you mean is that you agree with his actions and that's why you admire his beliefs. How do you feel about tyrants that have stood by their beliefs and in the process caused the deaths of many of their own and other citizens. Try Mr. Asad of Syria for example. He is sure standing by his beliefs. Actually, as i think about it, using your standard, you should have more respect for Asad since if he backs down he might well end up dead. Lee, if he had stayed home, most likely didn't have that risk.
Keep in mind that a large portion of Virginia, now West Virginia, didn't fight.

How do you feel about the large number of American citizens that stood up for their beliefs during the Vietnam War and refused to fight. Some had the courage to go to jail and others left everything behind and went to other countries.
 

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Traders,
1. Our country was founded by "traitors". George Washington and many others swore an oath as Brittish militia officers and they all broke that oath Anybdifference with Lee,and the other CSA officers who resigned. You seem to forget that the U.S. military at that time, gave the southerners permission to leave...

2. R.E. Lee never returned to Arlington and his son was paid by the U.S. for the Arlington House. LIinoln was molding in his grave when this happened.

3. He would not have "been responsible" for all those deaths if they had kept their butts up north and Lincoln had not goated the south into firin on Sumter.

4. West Virgina by Consitutional law is not a state.

5. The individual responsible for the first people being buried at Arlington did so out of anger as his son zinged when he should have zagged and died.

Van
 

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SF SGM

1. On the assumption that you are accurate about GW and many others swearing an oath as British militia officers, it would be interesting to see what that oath says. If you can find a copy, please publish.

In any case, yes they were traitors to Britain, but they did not try to kill Americans. Lee did and that's a fact that is hard to avoid and an enormous difference.

2. My comment about Lee being allowed to go in peace had nothing to do with Arlington. That was inevitably Lincoln's decision. Nothing Lincoln ever said or wrote ever indicated any hatred towards the South. The same can not be said about the Southern leadership about the North.

3. Lincoln "goated (goaded?) the South into firing on Sumter." You have to be kidding. Sounds like the Japanese goaded the US into WW2 and Al Qaeda goaded the US into attacking Afghanistan. Of course your right that if Lincoln had been willing to accept the expropriating of US property and the elimination of the United States there would have been no Civil War. He said he wasn't and didn't. It was the US Congress that voted to go to war. If the Southern members of Congress had been at that session they might have been able to prevent it. They chose not to show up. Their choice.

4. " West Virgina by Consitutional law is not a state." Not being a Constitutional scholar, i really can't comments about that but I would bet the West Virginia Senators, Congressmen, etc. would have a lot to say. Try contacting them. I will be interested in their reply.

In any case, it avoids the issue. Lee could have stayed home as many in Virginia did. Changing the subject doesn't change the facts.

5. "The individual responsible for the first people being buried at Arlington did so out of anger as his son zinged when he should have zagged and died"

Having never lost a son in battle i can only guess how I might feel. Considering the kinds of true heroes buried at Arlington I would be very hesitant to suggest that they should have "singed" when they should have "zagged". Perhaps you think they should have all stayed home. I can hardly think of anything more distasteful and disrespectful than your comment about Arlington.

I did notice that you made no response about Lee's ability to stay home which would have avoided so many American deaths.

Eagerly waiting for your reply, if any.

Auctioneer,

Do you respect Lincoln for saying what his beliefs were and standing up for them? I eagerly await your reply.
 

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Only a foul mouthed, ill mannered Yankee, who had the misfortune of not having proper manners taught to him while growing up, would besmirch Marse Robert!
 

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Auctioneer,
In response by order.
1. I cannot find the oath that American militia officers took as they were political appointments. Yes, they did kill other Americans. They were called Tories and they were killed by their fellow countrymen on the other side.

2. All Southern officers who graduated from West Point either resigned their commission or had already left the U.S. Army. As I stated, the U.S. Army and Navy allowed southerners to be discharged and free to return to their southern homes.. Legally, Lee owned no slaves as he was the executor of his father in laws will which stated that all of his slaves were to be freed by 1862, which Lee did. The same cannot be said of U.S. Grant's wife, Julia Dent Grant, who Grant allowed to keep her slaves till the passage if the third 13th ammendment, summer of 1865.

3. Lincoln and his Secretary of State Seward had both promised the Virginia Peace delegation that Sumter would not be reenforced and would be vacated. Lincoln then sent the Far West by to resupply and she was fired on. Lincoln did not want Virginia to leave but when he sent the Far Wedt and when Confederate forces fired on Sumter, the voted to leave.

4. The Constituion states that if any part of an existing state wishes to become a separate state, it must meet the all current requirements and the loosing state legislature must vote to approve it. I cannot find anywhere the Virginia legislature voting in 1862/63 to allow a portion of their state to become a state. Perhaps you can.

5. I served 26 years in the U.S. Army and have friends buried there and we are discussing how it became a cemetery in 1864 not the hallowed ground that it has become. Mrs. R.E. Lee attempted to pat the taxes of around $92.0 but the a Federal government refused payment and seized the property for failure to pay taxes.

6. You keep harping that all Lee had to do was "stay home". I don't think you can gasp how people thought of their states during that time. Even northern states had a distrust of. Central federal government. Lee was bound by the words, duty, honor and country, yes he along with the majority of American both north and south, believed their country to be their state. If you recall, the morning he resigned from the U.S. Army, he penned that famous letter to his sister and in it he said, "yet in the defense if my native state, I will never draw my sword again". When Virginia left and asked for his sword, he of course agreed. The same could be said of all those northern troops, all they had to do was stay home and no one would have been killed. Lincoln did not want the right if a state to leave to go to the Supreme Court as he knew they under the Consitutional would have to uphold the states rights. There was nothing then and now in the Constitution reference a "perpetual union"

Lincoln was a pure politician and nothing else.The Supreme Court ruled in 1866, that he violated the constitution when he suspended the writ of Habeus Corpus but said nothing during the war years about it. Look at the election of 1864, Lincoln ordered a General a Butler to place guards at the poles to insure the right people voted.. Sounds familiar today.

You have you views on history, others have theirs and that is good for it makes for some good debates..

Van
 

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Rick,

I am sure you will be proud to note that I have added "class clown" to the list of insults you have directed at me.

The complete list of names you have called me is as follows:dumb, a loon, a moron, coward, brain washed, feeble minded, mentally ill, believes in perverse and unnatural laws and hinted that I am a "liberal" (the ultimate insult on this site), a Communist and dim witted, lunacy and loser, jerk, class clown. You are on a roll although I would point out that several of your insults are redundant, dumb, feeble minded, dim witted, lunacy.

If I have missed any, please let me know.

While it continuous to be tedious to remind you, I will: "by registering for this site, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-explicit, hateful, threatening, or otherwise in bad taste in an open public forum."

Try keeping your word at least to the moderators. I know it's hard for you.

SF SGM:

Thank you for a reasoned response.

1. I do know that Tories were killed during the American Revolution. I don't think it was GW's or the revolutionary government's policy. As far as i have read these acts of violence were done by what now might be called vigilantes. Hardly the same a leading an army to kill Americans.

2. i do know that Lee and other officers of the Confederacy did officially resign their commissions. Under the circumstances, it was the right thing to do but it is hard to deny that it mightily contributed to the number of American deaths. That has been my point all along.

3. I have never read anything that describes a meeting by Lincoln or Seward during which they pledged not to reinforce Fort Sumpter. Please publish some reference. I certainly know about the February 1861 peace convention, but I don't think that is what you are talking about. Is it?

4. I would suggest that Arlington became "hallowed ground" the first time any Civil War dead were buried there. I will take you word for it that the Federal government used the non-payment of taxes as a justifications for the seizure. Considering the level of anger in the North about the assassination and the wide spread, although unproven and probably not true, belief that the leaders of the Confederacy were part of an assassination conspiracy to kill Lincoln, i can easily understand why Arlington would have been taken.

I still think it was magnanimous for Lincoln to let almost all of the Confederate army to just go home. With the exception of the Confederate prison camp directors, that's what happened.

5. Clearly Lee didn't think he had a responsibility to the Union. I can understand his torn loyalties. I still believe the honorable thing for him to do was stay out of it. I don't think it is reasonable to compare Lee's decision to that of those officers that stayed loyal to the Union. They didn't have to break any oaths.

Yes, Lincoln was a politician and a darn good one. Unfortunately, the label, at least in our time has become an insult. It wasn't always. And yes, he broke the law of Habeus Corpus.

Without Lincoln it is unlikely there would be a United States. More likely there would be 48 individual countries. As you have correctly suggested, people did not so much think of themselves as Americans; more Virginians, Georgians, etc. Think Europe. If the policy of voluntary secession had been accepted, you can be sure that other States, both North and South would inevitably have had their own grievances with a central government and voted to go their own way.

While it is not quite germane to your comments, you might do some research on the SCOTUS's decision about whether States had the legal right to secede. Texas vs White, 1869.

We sure could use more Lincoln's today. Can we agree on that?
 

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Traders,
1. It is estimated that between 15to 20% of the white male population in the American colony were loyalist. That would put the actual number around 500,000 white males. Granted no where near that number took up arms and it is thought that at least 800 black loyalist enlisted in one regiment alone.tories numbered around 19,000 who enlisted in Brittish line unit composing 50 units and 312 companies. Another 50,000 or so made up militia units. The total number who actually took up arms is around 50,000. The acts you reference actually started in S.C. when regulators started acts of violence against Tories.

2. Of course that contributed to the deaths of many Americans. As N.B. Forrest stated, "war is killing".

3. The reference for this is from David M. Potter's book, "Lincoln and His Party in the Secession Crisis".

4. Arlington House was seized prior to Lincoln's death. If I remember correctly, it was the Federals who planned to assassinate Jeff Davis first in 1864 also known as the Dahlgren Affair. The union stated the orders were forged but since Secretary of War Stanton had them destroyed for some reason, the truth will never be known. Kill cavalry Kilpatrick said they were real

5. There was no way Lee would sit out the war. I highly recommend Robert E. Lee Jr. book, which is composed of His father's letter and you will see into Lee not only the soldier but husband, father and college president. Will give you great look into the man.

6. Texas vs White has long been debated, Chief Justice Chase based his decision on everything from the Articles of Confederation to the Consitution but in neither is a "perpetual" Union stated. As early as 1800, states were voting on leaving the union, I.e. Alexander Hamilton statement, "perhaps it is time for us to leave this republic".

I will agree that we need real Americans in our public office, not Republicans or Democrats but Americans. Tis a sad state we are in when our elected officials vote on party lines not what is best for the country.

I don't know if you have read in depth about the Corwin Ammendment which came about from Buchanan's committee of 33, the 2nd 13th ammendment but it is interesting and is still on the books to be ratified by the states after passing Congress in March of 1861. Another good study is the Hampton Road Peace talks where Lincoln suggested that the North would reimburse Southerners for "their property" and that the freeing if slaves under both the Emancipator Proclamation and the 3rd 13th ammendment were nothing more than "war measures" and both would probably be over turned by the courts. This was in February, 1865.

Van
 
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