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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Here is a hypothetical question for you legal beagles out there. Suppose a guy lives in Texas (legal residence) but spends his summers in a cottage in the mountains of Pennsylvania. Now, while he's in PA, he looks on the internet and sees a gun for sale that he wants to buy. This gun is owned by an individual in Texas.

Could the Texas resident who is now in PA buy the gun directly from the Texas seller and have the gun shipped directly to him in PA without going through a FFL? Assume that it is perfectly legal for each of these individuals to own guns.

My thinking is that it is legal since both are legal residents of Texas. It shouldn't matter where you happen to be at the moment. You have one legal principal residence. If both the buyer and seller are residents of the same state (such as Texas), then no FFL need be involved. Do you agree or disagree and why?

Here is what BATFE has to say:

"3. May I lawfully transfer a firearm to a resident of the same State in which I reside?


Any person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of the State where he resides as long as he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. There may be State laws that regulate interstate firearm transactions. Any person considering acquiring a firearm should contact his or her State Attorney General’s Office to inquire about the laws and possible State or local restrictions. A list of State Attorney General contact numbers may be found at www.naag.org.- 3 - "

On the other hand, this following quote leads me to believe that a FFL may need to be involved on the receiving end.

"What constitutes residency in a State?
The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]"


Easystreet
 

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In order to complete a same state transfer, the subject firearm needs to be delivered within the same state.

The seller might be able to ship it out of state without anyone else knowing, regardless the receiving individual is a same state resident or not, but that's not what a same state transfer suppose to be.
 

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Theoretically you may be right, however, state laws of both states would come into play as well, and Federal laws still may as well since the gun will cross several states lines on its way to you. I know PA has its own separate background check system.

I doubt very much you'll find a seller willing to risk it though.

I've never seen such a question come up in writing on the ATF website, so the only way to get a real answer will probably be to contact them directly, but any answer you get from them is only that agents interpretation of the law, and is not something that should be legally relied upon (it certainly won't hold up in court that Agent XYZ said it was OK to do).
 

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Where the transaction may also run afoul is the Texan with the gun shipping the gun to the Texan in PA.

But, I think that it can be done, if Texas does not have any back ground checks that has to be applied for in person. Bending the law a little.

Texan in PA pays Texan w/gun and gets a bill of sale. Texan w/gun ships gun FOR the Texan in PA to the Texan in PA. In effect the Texan in PA is shipping the gun to himself in PA. Not sure how strict the PO is about having an "agent" do the mailing.

What I think would be the best course is conclude the sale by mail and/or have the Texan w/gun hold the gun. Texan in PA fly's down and takes possession of the gun. He can then mail it to himself to PA of take it with him a luggage back to PA.
 

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Can you get away with it? Probably.

What happens when you get caught? Is it really worth playing the odds?

In the USA there is "Intrastate" and "Interstate" commerce. What you can get away with under one does not apply to the other.

The seller in this case would be illegally shipping a firearm under the "Interstate" rules.

I don't think it matters where the buyer lives. The real question is whether the seller can legally ship a firearm across state lines to a private individual. I would say no.
 

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"The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present;"

"A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State."

"A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual "in" his or her State of residence."

It is crossing State lines for the "transfer" of ownership. Legally the gun should be shipped to an FFL, and transferred to the individual, as any other interstate transaction to the State of Pennsylvania.
 

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Thanks to His Royal Highness, King Andrew Cuomo and his SAFE ACT, all in-state transfers between resident New Yorkers are illegal without going through an FFL. His close door, midnight political dealings would make even the Mafia proud -----
 

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Thanks to His Royal Highness, King Andrew Cuomo and his SAFE ACT, all in-state transfers between resident New Yorkers are illegal without going through an FFL. His close door, midnight political dealings would make even the Mafia proud -----
I really feel sorry for the people on New York state thanks to this Corrupt Communist GOON ! When that sorry POS dies they won't be able to bury him. He is so crooked they will have to screw his worthless hide into the ground!!!
 

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After the sale is completed, that gun belongs to the buyer. In my opinion, the buyer can have his own gun shipped to him by anyone, including the seller. If I am hunting out of state, and my gun breaks, my wife can ship another gun to me without a problem. The fellow who originally sold me the gun can do the same.
 

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I understand the question but I have a general comment on all the legal stuff we face as gun owners. If every transfer of ownership is done with both parties going to a FFL Dealer in person, you will have very little to worry about. With the plethora of gun laws that vary state to state and even counties & cities within a state, you can save the legal worries by going through a dealer. I believe all interstate gun transfers have to be handled by an FFL dealer in the state of the party it's being transferred to, unless it was willed to you by someone's death as part of settling an estate. I'd check with your local gun shop where it will be transferred and explain the transfer to them. They will have the best answer to be 100% legal in the location your at.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Don't count on the local gun shop knowing the laws. Just last week I had a LGS receive a shotgun for me from out of state. When I went to pick it up, they said they couldn't transfer the gun to me because it didn't come from an FFL holder. I told them politely that an FFL license was not required for the shipper of a long gun. One of the managers there at the LGS insisted that is what an ATF agent told him in person. Again, I explained that he was wrong, and perhaps the ATF agent was referring to handguns. Nope, he insisted he was right.

Luckily for me, they contacted the seller at his business which is firearms related and therefore they have a FFL license. He then FAXED a copy of the FFL to the LGS and I was finally able to pick up my gun.

So, long story short, don't count on the LGS knowing the law. The next time I go to ANY LGS to pick up a gun, I'm going to carry with me a printout of the applicable law/regulation from the BATFE website pertaining to this issue. It's a b!tch having to explain to someone who is in the gun business what the law really is. They SHOULD know the law, but many of them don't.

Easystreet
 

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Don't count on the local gun shop knowing the laws. Just last week I had a LGS receive a shotgun for me from out of state. When I went to pick it up, they said they couldn't transfer the gun to me because it didn't come from an FFL holder. I told them politely that an FFL license was not required for the shipper of a long gun. One of the managers there at the LGS insisted that is what an ATF agent told him in person. Again, I explained that he was wrong, and perhaps the ATF agent was referring to handguns. Nope, he insisted he was right.

Luckily for me, they contacted the seller at his business which is firearms related and therefore they have a FFL license. He then FAXED a copy of the FFL to the LGS and I was finally able to pick up my gun.

So, long story short, don't count on the LGS knowing the law. The next time I go to ANY LGS to pick up a gun, I'm going to carry with me a printout of the applicable law/regulation from the BATFE website pertaining to this issue. It's a b!tch having to explain to someone who is in the gun business what the law really is. They SHOULD know the law, but many of them don't.

Easystreet
--Sure know where you are coming from Easy! I have had problems with the Post office on occasion. There are a couple of postal workers who know the laws, but, some don't. I had a heck of a time once because one lady INSISTED that I had to be an FFL to ship a gun to a gunsmith for repair. Thankfully the "Gun Guy" (who I nicknamed because he is well versed in postal firearms regs.) was around to set it straight. A lot of people go by what they HEAR instead of taking the time to actually READ the laws for themselves!
 

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I'm surprised an FFL did not follow his rules, by sending a firearm for a stranger to someone out of state without identifying himself. Something fishy with that deal.

I would not blame a FFL one bit for refusing to transfer guns from a stranger to another. The guns being transferred...... if the seller won't have an FFL involved I'd walk. No gun is worth taking a chance over.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I'm surprised an FFL did not follow his rules, by sending a firearm for a stranger to someone out of state without identifying himself. Something fishy with that deal.

I would not blame a FFL one bit for refusing to transfer guns from a stranger to another. The guns being transferred...... if the seller won't have an FFL involved I'd walk. No gun is worth taking a chance over.
There is no requirement in federal law for a FFL to be involved on the sending end of a transaction of a long gun. The seller was selling me his privately owned gun. He did not need to have an FFL in order to be in compliance with federal law. He simply faxed a copy of the company's FFL to appease the misinformed store manager who was holding up the legitimate and legal transfer of my gun. My legal rights should not be subject to infringement by a store manager's ignorance.

Easystreet
 

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There is no requirement in federal law for a FFL to be involved on the sending end of a transaction of a long gun. The seller was selling me his privately owned gun. He did not need to have an FFL in order to be in compliance with federal law. He simply faxed a copy of the company's FFL to appease the misinformed store manager who was holding up the legitimate and legal transfer of my gun. My legal rights should not be subject to infringement by a store manager's ignorance.

Easystreet
You should get your own FFL then. There is no federal law that requires him to transfer anything to you. It does not matter what he needed when he is the boss. In my business you would find the same standard. No one has any obligation to serve you.None.

Granted he was not up to speed but I know FFL's that will not transfer guns received from individuals. That's their right , not yours as you have no rights in this case.

You are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Your OP was silly, now this.

Only brian knows all 20-25,000 firearms laws in the USA. With CC there are provably twice that many by now.

AND, you had a gun sent to an FFL that you did not talk with first and ask for his rules????????????????????????????????? Even those living on easystreet have to sometimes,,,,,,, stop and think.
 

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My legal rights should not be subject to infringement by a store manager's ignorance.
According to the Federal regulation, you're absolutely correct.
However, in the world we live, there're so many ignorant, self-appointed experts out there to make our life difficult, and the burden of proving their mistake falls on our shoulder.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
221,

You're making a lot of assumptions, most of which are wrong. I DID talk to the LGS before the gun was shipped and he simply said to have the gun sent to him and he would transfer it to me for a fee of $35. He said nothing at all about imposing any rules of his own over and above what the law requires.

Yes, the LGS has the right to impose any rules they want that are over and above the requirements of the law, but if they are going to do so, they should inform the buyer before the gun gets shipped to his store, not afterward.

Also, you are assuming that the LGS told me that they wouldn't accept the gun from an individual because it was not their policy to do so. WRONG AGAIN! They told me that they couldn't transfer the gun to me because that was the law. So, they were wrong and you are wrong. But thanks for giving us your opinion even though it added nothing to the discussion except to tell us how little you understood of the situation.

Easystreet
 

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221,

You're making a lot of assumptions, most of which are wrong. I DID talk to the LGS before the gun was shipped and he simply said to have the gun sent to him and he would transfer it to me for a fee of $35. He said nothing at all about imposing any rules of his own over and above what the law requires.

Yes, the LGS has the right to impose any rules they want that are over and above the requirements of the law, but if they are going to do so, they should inform the buyer before the gun gets shipped to his store, not afterward.

Also, you are assuming that the LGS told me that they wouldn't accept the gun from an individual because it was not their policy to do so. WRONG AGAIN! They told me that they couldn't transfer the gun to me because that was the law. So, they were wrong and you are wrong. But thanks for giving us your opinion even though it added nothing to the discussion except to tell us how little you understood of the situation.

Easystreet
I'm just commenting about your rant about how stupid they are compared to you. Maybe he was doing what he was told to do, maybe you talked to the wrong person. WHATEVER......BUT your accusations are your side of the story and you are bashing a business by name on a public forum. Can you really blame folks for pissing you off when you did what you have?

You set the stage with your silly question when you started this thread, then you went to trashing a business because you know the law better than they do. Which way is it????????

Some of you have some really twisted interpretations of the laws. You are living proof.
 
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