Someone's release mouse is malfunctioning.

 

Some guys cannot let these things go. In the mean time the Minneapolis GC is having their annual Handicap Championship. John, come shoot with us.

 

What a flinch.

 

The Grand Rapids Jackpot is now up to $419.50. Stop up and win the money. Nice club and good food. July 31st win some money to pay for the gas to the GRAND. Glenn

 

I hope to see you all on the 31st. 419.50 will look very good in my wallet


Great place to shoot

Kooz

 

Tim. Well said. And I saw exactly what you saw and that was a very well run shoot at the Minneapolis Gun Club. A lot of folks donated their efforts including you running the computer scoring. Thanks for that.

 

Tim. Actually I was tying to be funny. If therre is anything serious there it would be that not all folks really believe as you guys do. And Too, Wally knows he can pop me back anytime and usually does. Really, I'm good with you guys, just believe a bit diffeent. And I too am a ATA shooter of 60 thousand targets. I guess the only thing that really bothers me is that this thing cannot be left alone. Can't we just be trapshooters and learn to get along once again? They do that other places.

 

I consider many of you MinidamsOta boneheads as my friends and great acquaintances. This on going saga of retardation is making the rest of the trap community wonder who has the best interest of the sport in mind up'dar. Let the MTA members decide at the state meeting and live with it. Move on by electing some new officials if needed. This should be embarrassing.

Maltzie

 

John. Well, I have no idea what that is about. I thought this was about marathon targets and the All-State team.

And John, if you'd just get that damned 94 fixed up at Rogers, you get more shooters.

 

Good Afternoon,

You know, some days are just worth getting up in the morning. One of those days will be this Saturday, the day of the zone shoot for MN. when a lively discussion on this proposal will take place. With some very important questions being asked. Some tempers may flare, some true colors will be shown and in the end, we will all have a better knowledge of this whole deal!

The next will be Saturday the 10th of July, at our state meeting with the whole shooting famdamily! When we can put this issue to rest and perhaps shape the future of Trapshooting in Minnesota with our votes. I look forward to both with anticipation that I have not had for several years.

I have agonized over this thing for too long and I am ready to put it to bed! I am not alone. There has not been a voting year so important as this that I know of where so much is at stake. The future of Minnesota Trapshooting and it's growth hangs in the balance. It is all on the table. I urge all Minnesota shooters to be vocal, voice your opinions, be heard! YOUR vote this year can make all the difference!

Mark Stevens
Primedust

 

Mark

Is this going before the membership for a vote on July 10 or is it going to the Board of Directors for a vote on Thursday, July 8? I have read it both ways and don't know which is correct. I agree that this is an important issue and not just to the state team types. I have seen unintended consequences already and expect even more, no matter which way the vote goes. Personally, I feel the best interest of Minnesota trapshooters would be served if this proposal was withdrawn and the time and effort spent on the greater good of the sport.

Thank you and yours for serving on the BOD.

Bob

 

Bob,

I seriously doubt if this will be withdrawn. I know of several shooters whom have and are giving up shooting over this. Some whom are just boycotting some clubs over this and some that will give up shooting if this passes.

I sincerely hope it comes before the entire MN. shooting world, as it effects us all, and not try to be reviewed or voted on by the board. You are right I have heard discussions both ways too. I hope the only vote we as a board take on Thursdays meeting is whether to table it or bring it before our MN. shooters.

Thanks for your trust Bob! We do appreciate it.

Mark S.

 

So Wally, if you cannot handle more shooters what is John trying to accomplish?

You won the battle to have shoots whenever you wanted. the only one left is the All-State team requirements issue. Adn You'll have to covince more than thoase that shoot at your place to get that accomplished.

I wish you and your shooter the best, but I cannot side with the
Target is a Target" issue. Some targets are weighted higher than others. Jus tlook at All American concepts. Doesn;t that offer some proof?

 

Hi Jack

I don't think the All American points are based on the toughness of the targets as much as the size of the shoot. The Victor shoot up at St. Cloud drew 17 shooters. Buffalo probably had as many. The proposal would have us anoint the Victor and condemn the Buffalo shoot. Why? I think the way to maintain a level playing field is to keep all shoots open to all shooters. If the targets at Buffalo or Waseca were so easy, more folks trying to make the state team would shoot there. That's just not the case. I can honestly tell you that my lowest score this year was at Buffalo and my wife's two lowest scores this year were at Buffalo. We haven't returned to Waseca because those easy marathon targets set at about 12' kicked our butts. And Jack advised that they were as low as his machines would throw them; the traps were set all the way down. You cannot convince me that these were easy targets. My wife's highest scores last year were at the Grand and the Heartland Grand. To her those targets must have seemed easier than Buffalo or Waseca even though they were at shoots boasting All American points. They weren't, nor were they any harder.

The proposal also says that people only shoot marathons in good weather and the good folks that attend the other shoots shoot in all weather. That argument is a little week also. Look at Owatonna's Cabela's shoot. I went down on Saturday prepared to shoot in the rain if need be. The shoot was delayed for two hours because of the light rain. I'm sure there were people that did not come based on the forecast. I left because my "other life" commitments did not have a two hour rain delay built into them.

Then you have the record keeping issue. The ATA does not now and has no plans to record marathon targets any differently than any other targets. I know this because I asked them. So to ATA record keepers, "a target is a target". Who keeps that all straight? We've seen shoots draw low numbers and suddenly become targets only shoots rather than trophy shoots. Who records that for the Minnesota state team if it happens in Arizona? You see Stockdales having several large shoots a year and at the end of the day they offer marathon targets if there is interest. How do we keep all of that straight? I suspect the answer is that we don't have a way to do that. We could probably just disqualify targets for state team consideration if they are shot at Buffalo or Waseca, or could we? I know Buffalo throws some non-marathon targets also. The calendar shows that Alexandria, Forest Lake, St. James and Bemidji throw both types of shoots as well. I know that in the recent past, Minneapolis has had marathon targets on Fridays. How do you keep all of that straight? Seems like a daunting task here in Minnesota but the proposal does not cover just Minnesota, it covers ALL marathons.

Then we have the issue of supposed cheating by marathon shooters. An ugly thought that was brought to my attention at the last board meeting. We have ways of dealing with cheaters; they are detailed in the ATA rule book. But, as I read the BOD minutes with great interest, I don't see any official complaints about marathon cheaters in Minnesota. Some folks seem to think that anyone that shoots better than them must be cheating. Again, not the case. I know a couple of shooters that shoot a lot of marathons. One was the state singles runner up after shoot offs. The other was the state doubles champion. Neither needs to pad their records. I've also seen the singles champion at Buffalo but I don't know (or care) if he shoots marathons there. They all won their titles because they were the top shooter's that day. Do top shooters have to cheat? No, why would they. I know you might bring up Earl's name but he was going for records. I don't think these gentlemen are. Perhaps some would suggest I keep my average this low for the big payday. Been shooting registered 21 years and fully accept that there is no big pay day coming for me. Do you really think that I enjoy being beaten by the wife year after year after year. If there is cheating, let's get some folks to sign official complaints. I easily dismiss allegations that are not supported by official complaints. Innocent until proven guilty is still good enough for me.

I do believe this is a devisive issue and it keeps coming up. I would differ from you in your idea of who keeps bringing the issue up. It wasn't the marathon shooters and it wasn't most of the trophy shooters, it was just a couple of guys that can't seem to let it go that have caused all of this furor. They went on the offensive and the rest are trying to defend themselves.

I think the bottom line is Buffalo is successful. I think I know why. The first time we walked into their clubhouse, we were greeted by name and welcomed by about eight people we had never met before in the first few minutes and welcomed with open arms. We were recently at another club in Minnesota where we walked in and were greeted by stares and silence for the first 20 minutes. Which do you think we prefer? I think some of the silent starers are quite envious of Buffalo's success and want to fix it. I prefer to celebrate it. I belive I heard they threw more targets last year than all but Alexandria. For a three trap club with a hill in the middle, that's pretty impressive

So Jack, you can see that I disagree with you on several issues but you should know that I respect you as a stand up guy. We just have different perspectives on this issue. If this was just a state team issue, I wouldn't care in the least. I see it as a much larger issue and it concerns and frightens me much like the nightly news.

Regards

Bob

 

BGC will only rest when their shooters can shoot all of their All-State honors requirements at the BGC club. End of argument. All the rest is just trying to convince the MN zone shooters to get behind their cause.

Nothing more.

 

But, but, but,

There is a four club rule in place. Any shooter must shoot at least four Minnesota clubs to qualify for the state team. I believe that is the rule that kept a Minnesota All American off of the state team, unfortunately.

BGC will only rest when others stop poking them in the eye with a sharp stick, I suspect.

Peace

Bob

 

Wally. I shoot MN. I'd shoot yor place except fo rthat damned I94 at Rogers. I am an ATA shooter with 60 thou targets. I think when John compares the All-State Requirement issue with Gun Control gives me as much latitude to speak my piece as any MN shooter. That was and is bogus and you guys should not get a free pass on that. I did not start this argument. But I am willing to continue, because yo are losing support. Tim, John, Mark, and Wally do not form a majority.

Hope to see you at Monticello on Sunday.

 

I expect to hear a proposal along these lines:

There will be three types of shoot that can be used to get you on the MN state teams.

Type 1. The Grand, Satellite Grands, Zone shoots, State Shoots (if ATA.)

Type 2. The Minnesota State and Zone shoots.

Type 3. Shoots in Minnesota which have a maximum of 400 targets/day, shootoffs, and probably much of what was once in the *asterisk plans one and two.

One less club required in Minnesota (?)

Fewer team members. Fifteen plus Captain for men, (?) seven plus Captain for women (?).

Anything with a "(?)" I'm not sure of, not questioning the policy.

If I've got it wrong, I will make no apologies (either.) Someone knows and has had plenty of time to make it known here. If I'm misleading people, I'm only able to do so because no one with the facts will post them.

I also anticipate hearing, at the zone shoot, what happens next. Who, what, where - that kind of thing.

Personally. I expect this to be a _very_ tough sell to Minnesota shooters, and one with considerable risk which I doubt has been factored in by its proponents. But I'm willing to listen and watch. Most zone meeting are kind of a bore. I doubt this one will be.

Neil

 

Ron. Good post. But I was under the impression that the marathon side of the group wanted all the marathon to count to the exclusion of changing venue, Zone and state targets. So, which is it?

 

Jack, I don't think it was an 'either/or', as the rump proposal offered several changes (besides the obvious, gratuitous and traditional sticking a thumb in BGC's eye).

- you could shoot 'Minnesota' targets at Sparta, Phoenix, Vernal, San Antonio ...

- you had to have four traps to throw 'State Team' eligible targets ... *shoot (did that one make it through the 2May meeting?)

- having to shoot zone/state to make the state team was unchanged, target minimums were lowered and the # of MN clubs you had to shoot at was dropped from 4 to 3.

The 'wrong people' making the State Team, aside, the principal driver of the rump proposal is that MN shooting & shooters are a finite 'pie' and if BGC has a larger slice, then MGC (necessarily) has a smaller slice. That particular fallacy is popular in a wide range of economic (pseudo-)theory, but it is still fallacious.

I think the overlay question should be & remain: are these changes good for shooting in general and in specific?


Bob

 

Bob. YOu are too deep fo rme.

Marathons discourage changing venue shooting but increase the targets of the club. Marathon targets are the answer fo rsome clubs and the fall for others. On one hand the marathon clubs throw more, and on the other hand the changing venue group gives up. Although there does seem to be a couple extra shoots this year. Seems that way anyway. Only person tha might qual from Minneapolis GC might be Sletta. Zauhar is an All-American. If that is what you mean by MGC. All I see is that various groups see fairness differently. Nothing more.

This is just about personalities and All State quals.

 

Wally. when you put a thread into TS.com I'm entitled.

And don't I shoot in Minnesota? Huh? And belong to clubs in Minnesota? Huh? And Belong to BGC? Huh? BGC, Mpls, Owatonna, 3M, EauClaire (uh-oh, yeah that is the one Wisconsin club I belong to)

I'm going to delete out of this (mostly) and hope it dies

See you Sunday.

 

Jack, I don't think you have heard any marathon shooters complain about the rules as they are. Have you?

If it stops raining I'll get out to my camper where I have printed copy and post of what I think is "Part 3" so people will know what may be prosed tomorrow at the zone meetings.

Neil

 

Neil. Only one. Point taken

Wally and I do Ok, but I am a spokesman for ATA trapshooting. It matters not where i live. But that I shoot MN, belong to their clubs, contribute... I think I represent a lot of shooters that want this put to bed. Mine is just a personal opinoion based on real ATA shooting life. I do think others want to know another side.

 

This may be what we will see proposed tomorrow:

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Neil