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Sorry guys - I remain unconvinced, all of the "evidence" here against 1 ounce green dot loads is purely anecdotal. You all can believe whatever you want. The problem with trapshooters is that they are exposed to far too many stories and too few facts. But once the voices are in your head - you are also a believer.

My example is going to be the fella who won the Mo Fall Handicap Championship. He is a new shooter and was shooting STS Nitro 27s from the 20 yard line. In my opinion, the only reason he would shoot those heavy loads is because of some stupid story or piece of advice he heard at the gun club and now he is convinced you need those rhino-rollers even for short yardage.

Many other people are totally convinced you gotta shoot 1 1/8 ounce shells and you gotta use 7 1/2s, # 9s won't break targets, and you must use certain chokes if it is windy. The list goes on and on but not a single fact - just stories - but there is a long list of believers.

I bet if I loaded 10 one ounce loads powered by green dot and mixed them into a batch of shells loaded with red dot (matching velocities), you would not be able to tell which was which.
 
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Gary, I'm with you on this one. My favorite load for Scrap is 19.2gr of green dot, Fiocchi primers, the orange win wad(I'm drawing a blank of the number of the wad) and 1 oz or 1 1/8 of 8's. Shot my best scores ever with this load.
 
Gary:

Year's ago I shot with a retired Olin employee that loaded his one ouncers with Winchester 540 powder. He thought it was great. We mostly thought he was a lovable goof.

Believe whatever makes you happy. I'm not inclined to argue with people who manufacture powder by the train load.

sissy
 
Pat Ireland,

If Green Dot is designed for heavier loads, then why is it used in light 20 Ga. loads as well as 12 Ga.? I use it in both 12 Ga. 1 Oz loads and and 20 Ga. 7/8 oz loads with great results in all kinds of temperatures.

Tony C
 
birddogs, because 20 ga requires slower powders than 12 ga. Green Dot is considered a slower powder for 12, but a fast powder for 20. Pressure builds quickly. That's why you don't see anything other than squibb loads using Green Dot for 20 ga.

Gary Waalkes, a friend of mine often says you could shoot gravel at singles and do well. His point being singles targets are not hard to break. Almost any crappy shell will work. I, like Pat, prefer good shells, even if they don't improve my scores much. Try shooting your 1oz 8 1/2 load in cooler or colder weather and see what you think. You'll have to push your velocity up over 1200fps to get low double digit SDs.
 
Gentlemen:

Google “powder burn rate” and you’ll find numerous sources ranking smokeless powders according to the speed at which they burn. Pretty much every powder from every maker can be found.

Following are several Alliant products listed in order from fastest (Red Dot) to slowest (Blue Dot).

Red Dot

Green Dot


Unique


Herco


Blue Dot

Since there’s obviously some confusion about uses and/or terminology, maybe it best to ask, “What applications are best for fast powders and, when are slow powders better?” The simple rule of thumb is that faster powders are designed for lighter loads. Slower burning powders are formulated for heavier loads.

However, light and heavy are relative terms. So how do we distinguish one from the other? One factor is speed. We would all probably agree that if other variables are equal, a 1300 feet per second (fps) load is “heavier” than an 1145 fps load.

The other big factor is weight of the payload (shot charge) compared to the diameter of the chamber and bore. For example, a one ounce load in 12 ga. is generally considered light while a one ounce load in a 20 ga. is considered heavy.

Hunting loads provide additional examples. Every bullet maker sells ounce and an eighth 12 ga. hunting loads. Several make ounce and an eighth 20 ga. loads. It normally takes a three inch 20 ga. hull to do it. The obvious reason is there is less chamber and bore space in a 20 ga. The additional space required for an ounce and an eighth shot charge in the 20 ga. is created by using a longer hull.

Assuming we now have a general agreement on light versus heavy, a look at Alliant’s Reloader’s Guide is in order. The section for 2 ¾ inch 12 ga. hulls has recipes for shot charges ranging from three quarters of an ounce to an ounce and a half. Notice as the weight of the payload increases, the burn speed of the recommended powder decreases. This inverse relationship holds for all loads in all gauges.

Perhaps THE underlying issue of this entire subject is chamber pressure. Faster burning powders behind heavy payloads can create pressure spikes exceeding SAAMI standards. That is why there are no Red Dot loads listed for 12 ga. recipes with 1 ¼ oz. (or greater) payloads or in ANY 20, 28, or .410 loads.

On the other end, the slow burning powders including Blue Dot, have very slow burn rates which generate chamber pressure very slowly. That’s why magnum powders are particularly poor choices for recipes with light payloads. They simply don’t create the required pressures for complete powder burn and proper performance. They aren’t dangerous; they’re just inconsistent and perform poorly behind light payloads.

Using Red Dot and Blue Dot as the extremes of burn speed, notice there is overlap in applications. Every powder has a RANGE of applications where it will give acceptable results. It’s the overlapping areas we’re really debating. Green Dot overlaps with Red Dot on the light end and Unique on the heavy end. Herco overlaps with Unique and Blue Dot and so on.

Green Dot burns fast enough to provide acceptable results in some one ounce 12 ga. loads. That’s why Alliant publishes a few one ounce Green Dot recipes. However, Green Dot is specifically formulated for and performs even better in heavier loads. That’s why there is a PLETHORA of published loads for Green Dot in loads with heavier payloads. That’s also why Alliant describes the PRIMARY use of Green Dot as handicap trap loads.

In deference to Messrs. Waalke, Shooting Jack, and Birdogs, neither Mr. Ireland nor I said Green Dot won’t work in a one ounce load. We didn’t describe it as awful, dangerous or something to be avoided at all costs. The experience of Mssrs. Waalke, Shooting Jack, and Birdogs notwithstanding, the OPTIMAL use for Green Dot is loads heavier than one ounce.

With respect to those with contrary opinions, pretty much everything I’ve stated above is “reloading 101”. It aint rocket science and it most definately isn’t anecdotal.

It isn't factual because it is my opinion. Rather, it’s my opinion because these are established concepts based on tested data from industry professionals. A primary source is SAMMI and its member companies. Those members include ATK (corporate parent of Alliant) and Hodgdon Powder Co. among others.

Respectfully yours,

sissy
 
The burning rate of powder should be matched to the load because of the nature of what makes a shell shoot. The primer explodes first, then the powder begins to burn producing pressure the propels the shot. The pressure created by the powder depends on the speed and the size of the space in which it is burning. Burning 20 gr of powder in a large sealed container will not produce much pressure, but burning the same amount of powder is a sealed shotgun shell will produce a lot of pressure.

With lighter loads, the explosion of the primer causes the wad to move forward before the powder begins to burn. This increases the area in which the powder is burning and influences the pressure generated by the powder. Keep in mind, the first 3-7 ten thousands of a second is the most critical time when looking at powder performance. The inconsistent pressures generated by slower burning powders propelling light loads can be confirmed by pressure gun data.

But, Gary, if you have personal confidence with your 1 oz load and Green Dot, that confidence is probably more important than what the shell is actually doing.

Pat Ireland
 
I originally responded on this thread just to provide a data point to folks who do not believe green dot works well in one ounce loads. I used myself and some of my own scores for that example but I never gave the recipe. The one ounce load I use is on the heavy side of 19 grains of green dot in an STS shell, a TGT-12 wad, and Rem primer. this load is from a 2004 Alliant publication and should push that shot between 1150 and 1200 fps. So it is not really a "light" load (but recoil is much less than a 1145 fps 1 1/8 ounce load). My old 4th edition Lyman book (1998) says that 19.5 grains of GD would push that shot at 1198 fps. If you get this load going just a little bit faster, you will match the velocity of the STS Nitro 27 one ounce handicap load (1290 fps). But if I were trying to match the the velocity of the one ounce Nitro 27, I would switch to a figure 8 wad due to shell volume.

I don't shoot much in the winter but when I do, I use 1 1/8 ounce of 7 1/2s. This is one of those anecdotal things I mentioned before. At any rate, I enjoyed the different posts and hearing the thoughts of others. Don't be afraid of trying something as long as it is published - not a TS.com load. I have been so happy with 1 ounce 8 1/2s that I am thinking about trying a 7/8 ounce load - but that would require going back to red dot.
 
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