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Discussion Starter #1
Is anyone keeping records as to pros vs amateur winning events so far at the grand?---sjb---
 

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southjblue I will tell you what. I will make you a deal you tell me who is a PRO and who is an amateur.

I will see if I can keep the records on it.

Bob Lawless
 

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southjblue:

To the extent winners have been determined (some are still being carried over) they are all listed on rjstuart.com site. Event payouts and individual scores (thus answering, "is Kay there and if so, how's he doing" can be found on Stuart's site as well.

Instead of wasting band width with inane questions, how about looking up some answers for yourself. In the event you post those answers here, be sure to include your definition of "pro" and "joe".

sissy
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I don't know Bob---You did the Google---Lets change the word pro to big dogs---
I think that is an excepted discription of what I refer to as a pro---JMT---SJB---
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Sissy---I am somewhat new to this and need some help from time to time---I appreciate your input and am sorry for taking up your band time---When you see my call name you don't have to read it---You'll save some of your ag---JMT---SJB---
 

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You don't know who the pros are, Bob? I thought you've been doing this for a long time.

See, everyone knows there's pros in the Amateur Trap Association. Fortunately, solving this existential crisis will only help the ATA.
 

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southjblue

"Lets change the word pro to big dogs"

OK we can do it your way so you tell me who the Big Dogs are. Is that just the All Americans or all 27yd shooters that average 92 or more.

You can't just say the Big Dogs you need to define who they are and what the criteria is for being a PRO/Big Dog. I am not going to try to keep records on innuendo or supposition give me some thing to work with.

Bob Lawless
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Bob---I don't want to get into a gotchya with you---I think you know who I was referring to---I'll take Sissies advice and try to look it up for myself---You must be busy so please save your time and get on to better things---JMT---sjb--
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I am curious---Are there many out there that don't know the difference between a PRO and amateur as we speek of as a general characteristic in our sport?Maybe some time should be spent to make the determanation of the difference or should we just call everyone a trapshooter and end the question?---SJB---
 

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southjblue

"I don't want to get into a gotchya with you"

You don't use a name and I am not going to type your handle ten times per post. Even you must realize that just to say someone is a PRO doesn't make it so.

You need to tell us who is and who isn't before you can call them PROS/Big Dogs

Last year in the Grand American Handicap 132, 27yd shooters took a punch the minimum score of the 132 was a 96 there were 70 of them. The total punches given were 220. Of the remaining 88, 40 of them were a score greater than 96.

14 were at the 26

15 were at the 25

6 were at the 24

14 were at the 23

16 were at the 22

12 were at the 21

6 were at the 20

4 were at the 19

1 was at the 18

So how would you suggest how anyone goes about figuring out who deserves to be a PRO and who deserves to be a amateur.

I am not playing gotchya this is serious any decision made in this area will effect all shooters. Every one should understand that there is more at stake than throwing around words like PRO or BIG DOGS.

The wrong move will effect the future of this sport. THINK ABOUT IT because what you wish for may come back to bite you in the A** just remember this is only one event. The more you look at the worse it gets.

Bob Lawless
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Bob---I have been around guns,hunting and trapshooting all my life---Had to give it up during my $$$ earning yrs to raise my family---Been back now a few yrs and find it to be different than my past yrs in that we don't have the fun we used to have in the old days---Something is different---I enjoy this site but I have come across some that are mean sperited---You are more qualified than me to determine what the shouldbe's are---I shoot with a-lot of guys that will never be able to compete and as a result don't join the ATA---I for one want the ATA to survive---I think there are many that will rather spend their time in pratcice than try to compete against the "big-dogs" or what ever you want to call them---It is the little amaetur who is spending alot of their $$$ to keep this sport available to the high end players or what ever you call them.Not much time is spent talking about them---If we dry them up we won't have to be worried what name will be used for the so called pros---There must be something going on or we wouldn't be talking about it---JMT---I don't leave my name because of privacy but if you will keep it private I will send it in a PM---With respect---SJB---
 

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southjblue I am not interested in invading your privacy but I don't relish having to type southjblue every time I wish to address you. A simple Joe, Pete, Bill, Paul or whatever would be easier. I pretty sure it won't invade you privacy.

What I am trying to tell you the way it is going those that believe that there needs to be a PRO Class/Division to protect there ability to win some money. Are not seeing that the way they are talking will eventually put everyone on the 27yd line and that seems to be the criteria for being a PRO.

If that is the case and as yet I haven't seen anything that says other wise. Who will be left in the ATA in other words still an amateur????

Maybe just those that can't shoot a winning score at a the Bigger Shoots??? You know like maybe they should be left to play in the small club shoots only???

Or maybe then they will draw up different guide lines for everyone. Well there is a way to fix it. I will not however go into it now as for the last few weeks before the Grand it was batted around and no one agrees.

According to PK's survey everyone is in favor of PROS having their own Class/Division what have you. Hero worshipers however say no the obvious fix is they say wrong. I don't agree but I have been flogging a dead horse no one want to here it.

So all I will say is before they make room for PROS they better be sure it is the right move.

Mark said,

"Actually that is about the same type of format all other professional organizations adhere to"

Well if you Google the sports like Pro bowling, Pro Pool players, and many others you will find that anyone can join doesn't make them a Pro but you can still join. All it take is money. You can be what ever you want if you can pay for it.

So you feel free to figure it all out but as I said you better be right. If you or Mark or any of those that feel the that PRO status is imperative. Make the wrong move and the Amateur ranks die out because of it you will be right back in the same boat.

Bob Lawless
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Bob---Who is everyone in the PK survey? Is it a valid survey?Is it a qualified survey to make a change?Does it have clout?does it represent the majority of trapshooters?If the ans to those ??s is yes than it looks like things will change---Will it be better?---We don't know but like I said above it is on the minds of some or we wouldn't be talking about it.---If you will take a look at how I sigh off of all my threads you will note that I sign off with SJB---Thats only 3 letters and it will suffice.---SJB---
 

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southjblue Click on the link above and read it for yourself and see what it says instead of having someone explain it to you.

Bob Lawless
 

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Kiner's survey was posted here, T&F and ATA's website.

Judging from the demographic data (which ATA acknowledged), it's a pretty good cross section of ATA shooters & trapshooters, in general. It does have a sprinkling of SC, skeet and games shooters.

Without resorting to some pretty complex, timeconsuming and expensive methods, his survey is valid and reliable (both terms of art, btw).

And ... IF you've looked at the results pretty carefully - as opposed to fingertipping your transient thoughts to the list - it passes the smell-test, too.

There will be another survey after the Grand.

Bob
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thanks Bob but that site don't ans my ???s---If the survey is a strong opinion of most trapshooters, changes will be or should be made If the majority wants to keep it statous quo.That would be O.K. with me---JMT---SJB---
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Goatskin---That sounds like the Obama way---If he don't get it the way he wants it hell change the wording and end up with what he wants---I'll wait to see the nxt survey---With patience---sjb---
 
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