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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Looks like BPI (Ballistic Products Inc.) has finished their testing on the Noble Sport powders:

http://www.grafs.com/uploads/technical-resource-pdf-file/21.pdf

(see the fine print on the bottom of each page indicating that it is BPI's copyrighted data).



But some of it doesn't jive with BPI's previous "Load of the week" data. For example:



Doesn't seem to jive with the tabular data above :



I don't see how 1.5 grain more powder is going to create 100 PSI less pressure (when the 18.0 grain 1-ounce load that I've currently been using seems so stout).

I've sent the following E-mail to BPI. If/when I get a response to it, I'll update this thread.

 

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Well, if the data is copyrighted, you just violated it by posting it on the Internet. But I don't think data is copyrightable. If it was, you could copyright the phone book.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Well, if the data is copyrighted, you just violated it by posting it on the Internet.
Well, if that is the case, then Graf's violated it by posting it on their website, - that is where I got it. The date code on the lower right indicates that BPI published it yesterday, 05/19/2015 (shown as 150519).

In any event, I did get a very timely response from BPI about the question raised, and this is that exchange :



So Nebs, - if you wanted to see a 1-ounce load chrono tested in a Gunclub hull with a WAA12SL clone (Green duster) and a Winchester W209 primer, what charge weight would you suggest with Vectan 'AS' powder ? I'm fixing to go to my Wednesday night Trapshooting venue tonight, and so I'd like to brew up some 1-oz test loads with the AS powder, and open to suggestions on the charge weights to test.
 

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First, it makes no difference whether you copied it from someone else who violated another's copyright. 2 wrongs never make a right. Second, you don't know if Graf's had permission to copy the data, assuming copyright applies, which i don't think it does. And, since I know nothing about these powders, I recommend against using any load suggestion I might make.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Yeah, well, copyrights aside, the load in Test String #2 was the clear Wednesday night Winner for me at the 16, and 17 yard line.

 

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Mokeman3,
My test numbers are very, very close to yours....... and also very close to some of the information we have received from Nobel and others in the UK. I did very well last night from the 16 with the 18.5 load and my green dusters in Nitro 27 hulls and Federal primers......... Larry
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Yeah, well, I got 22 Lbs of 'AS', so I guess it's high-time I get giggy with it, and become intimately familiar with it.

I'm not real "giggy" with the Noble Sport NS-686 primers though, that's for sure. I think a hotter primer, possibly a medium-strength one (like the base line Winchester W209) would clean up that 7/8th's oz load shown in Test String 3 above.

It's too bad that BPI didn't test/publish any data for Vectan 206-V in their recent data re-publish. Guess I'm on my own with 206-V.

It is interesting however, that 2-days after Grafs published BPI's data on their website they decided to send me this E-mail :




But that's Ok though, at least it shows that they are looking out for their customers.

I still maintain that the (straight-wall) data in their original data release was fine, safe, and Ok (for the loads that I was already testing). But you know how those non-Euro, American hull purists types can be. I think it had a lot to do with that (and those types). Plus the fact that they had load data published showing pressures above the US SAAMI limit. I'm sure that didn't bode well with the SAMMI pressure police out there.

Anyways, we have new data out there to work with. I'll be spot-checking some of the loads that I am using with my RSI Pressure Trace setup. I'm not expecting any surprises, but I would like to see (for myself) what the limits of this ('AS') powder is. In my mind, that is the way that you become familiar with a particular powder, and it's characteristics and behaviors. For example, find the high and low points in which it becomes unstable. For the high side, I'd like to see how it behaves pressure-wise in AA HS/Remington hulls with 1-1/8th oz (even though it's not advertised as a 1-1/8th oz powder).

With my Maxam CSB-5 supply running thin, I see this as a very smooth transition to these Noble Sport Vectan powders. I've really warmed up to Prima-V, and recently 'AS'. I still love Maxam's CSB-1 for the Green dot/International replacement for the 12-gauge 1-1/8th oz loads. No one is ever going to convince me that Green dot and International is better than Maxam's CSB-1 in every aspect, any more than them old Green dot die-hards going around suggesting that green dot is better than International. CSB-1 beats both of them hands down.

AS doesn't meter as well as the CSB powders (do any powders meter that well?), and it's not too much of a surprise given it's square flake shape. But it's not bad either, - not as bad as Alliant's E3, and that alone is sort of a gawd-send. What I've been seeing is about +/- .1 grain, maybe a tad more. Clean? geeze, just when I thought the CSB-5 was clean stuff, this stuff comes along. There is definitely less post-firing chamber smoke with AS and Prima-V, and the barrels do look clean. But you'd have to really do a controlled side-by-side cleaning patch test (like I did once before) to know for sure. But that aspect of the product(s) is further down on the list.

Unless somehow these Vectan powders catch on and everyone starts buying out Grafs, and BPI (and Powder Valley?), I think we'll have access to them for a long time. The more Noble Sport Vectan powder haters and nay-sayers (and Timid-Timmy's) there are out there milling around and thumping their chest in the various other forums, the better I say. Non-Alliant, and non-Hodgdon powders aren't for everyone, and if the "data" situation is what helps keeps them at bay (from buying up all of the Vectan powder), then I'm totally Ok with the "Bad Data" labels people paint on it.
 

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I wonder how they managed to get 3-pages worth of bad reloading data. But hat's off to them for publishing some data. This Vectan things seems to be rolling a bit smoother than the CSB deal. But still a hiccup or two.
 

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I am guessing that supply will be the issue as it seems to be with any of the powders. The data available from other sources than Graf are in a different form than we are used to in the US. We are used to books that tell us ever possible load, wad, hull, primer, powder and so on. It seems the European data is more basic in scope and focus...... they also seem to compete with hotter loads than we do......... Larry
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I wonder how they managed to get 3-pages worth of bad reloading data.
I don't think it was all "bad" data per-se, and I have my own theory as to why they pulled it, but it doesn't matter at this point.

This Vectan things seems to be rolling a bit smoother than the CSB deal.
I'm not sure what "deal" you are referring to, but from a individual shotshell handloader perspective, I'm quite content with the CSB situation, as it's unique in it's own right, and is contributing to the overall powder shortage relief.

In the Seattle area, there are multiple people still selling CSB-1 for $18/Lb (Armslist, gun shows, and 'word-of'mouth' etc.), that there are now multiple people at multiple clubs shooting it (in 1-ounce) with good results, and I think that is wonderful. Yeah, not a full-fledged retail/canister release like you and others would like, but as I've mentioned before, I sorta prefer it this way myself. CSB-1, and CSB-1M are such fine quality powder, that if/when it did ever reach a full-fledged retail/canister level, people would buy it all up, and then it would be in the same "unobtainium" status like all of the other powders in no time at all.

So just like the CSB powders, I really hope that lack of data, questionable data, and/or pulled/re-released data are things that keep people from buying up all of the Vectan powders. The people who've already discovered the Noble Sport Vectan powders already know the value of it, and are going to buy it no matter what, and even this group of people (me included), are already putting a strain on the supply of it. The last thing we need is to be in competition with the general masses who only do Allliant/Hodgdon powders with gobs of data.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
It seems the European data is more basic in scope and focus......
Yeah, and I tend to agree with their approach really. Course, they mainly only load straight-wall hulls too, but I also get the feeling that Euro hand-loaders (in general) aren't so wrapped up around the axle like American hull reloaders are (about pressure, primers, wads, tubes, built-in pressure margins, SAAMI, and all of the other jazz that you see people fighting about in other handloading forums).

In my view, for a particular powder, all I need to know is the maximum charge limit for a given payload in a given hull. I can easily figure out the actual charge weight that I need/want for my particular load with my particular components.
 

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Good points Mokeman,
In the past few weeks I have communicated with numerous suppliers in Europe, the UK and with individuals in the UK. I sent an inquiry to Nobel/Vectan (I sent you the response last week) and was amazed at how quickly they replied even though my eventual total purchases will amount to less than zero to them.
The communications between myself and Brett23 have been a benefit to us both. I found a starting place for 1 1/8 12ga loads by inspection of a cheddite loaded with AS powder and he used that information to put together some loads using the hulls, wads, and primers he had available and he did so with great success. I agree with your assessment of the European folks, they a perhaps a bit more flexable and open than most...... of course my sample size is very small, perhaps I was just lucky enough to start communication with some like minded individuals. I do find one other interesting thing, they tend to stay on topic and do not use posts and threads as tools to attack other shooters.............. Larry
 

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When I first received the Vectan information from Grafs some time ago, the shotgun reloading data was published on their site. Based on that data, I purchased 11lbs. of the GM3. I am loading it in a Federal GM hull with a Windjammer 1 1/8oz wad, Fed 209A primer, 22.5gr. of the GM3, and 492gr. #8 shot. This load shoots excellent. Very clean, fast (chrono at 1225fps), low recoil, and crushes 27yd targets as good, or better, than the 21.5gr. Green Dot loads I have been using for handicap. With the powder situation as it is, the Vectan is a breath of fresh air in a suffocating powder market. I will continue to shoot it until Green Dot becomes available again. In fact, I like it so much, I may just stay with it from now on....
 

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I bought a few of the Fed GM 1 1/8 target, 1200 fps a couple days ago, I got a good price and I love loading the hulls. After reading Dan's post I opened one and did some weighing. 19.5 grains of Green Dot, the Federal 12S3 wad and 505 grains of #8 shot. The powder was obviously the Green Dot.
I shoot an 1100 CS and find the Vectan AS powder I am loading to be so clean as to really reduce the need for cleaning, I would seldom exceed 400 rounds before a super cleaning of the trigger group, I just cleaned the gun this morning with about 12oo rounds since the trigger came out. A little dust maybe but no issues....... I have more powder on order and have already decided to make the change Dan is thinking about...Larry
 
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