[joe kuhn]

I'm thinking what I need to help with cross-firing is a ghost ring rear sight with no front bead. Jack it up above the bbl and I've got what a Holosight gives me without the parallax correction (red dot stays on target even if you move your head off the stock) in a lot simpler and cheaper format. No batteries needed!

Bbl would be out of the way so I could hold even and look low.

Hm.

Anybody?

 

[Brian in Oregon]

Well, since you have a thread, I'll post what I sent in a PM...

I doubt that would work well. Ghost ring sights are large versions of peep sights. They still need a front sight for alignment. For shotgunning, your eye is the rear sight, fixed in place by the stock. You eye still uses the front sight. With a ghost ring only you have in effect two rear sights. The EOTech would seem to uphold the idea of a rear ghost only, but in reality you now have two rear sight.... or a rear sight (your eye) and a front sight (the ghost ring) with a VERY short sight radius.

If you want to try only one iron sight on a shotgun, look into an M60 folding anti-aircraft sight for the front and use your eye for the rear. I saw an old geezer with a makeshift version of that at the trap club, and he was doing OK. It was on an 870, and he spray painted the entire sight fluorescent red.

 

[DB Bill]

I"m not sure who it is but there is a custom gunsmith who makes a set of sights that are both hexagonal in shape --- a large one sits atop the recevier just like a peep sight and the other one, which is the same shape but smaller, sits near the end of the barrel. The theory being the eye will naturally center the smaller sight inside the larger one.

When I was much, much younger I went to a shoot at Elysburg where there was an old gentleman who was just about blind but could still shoot singles. He had an older single-barrel trap gun and his front sight was a bright orange rubber ball that someone had altered so the barrel could be pushed thru it with some effort. The only targets he shot were orange and he simply tried to merge the orange of the target with the orange blob on the end of his barrel. He mostly stayed in the '90s but it was strange to see someone help him out to his position.

 

[ivanhoe]

"red dot stays on target even if you move your head off the stock"

All I can say to that statement is it goes against all the principals of the art of shooting. Of course what I say doesn't matter on this site.

Joe in the cross firing thread you said.

"Before the call, I try to hold my gun even and look low. A good portion of my field of view is covered by the gun. On left handers my left eye sees the target first so my brain says go."

If you are using two eyes how can the gun block out your field of view? Unless you are put the entire forearm above the roof of the house the barrel isn't big enough to block your vision. JMO

If you left eye is seeing the targets on left targets and you go you are giving in to the shot. You may actually be moving the gun ahead of the target which is a No No. The target must always go by the barrel before moving the gun.

Bob Lawless

 

[dverna]

Joe,

It seems like an easy thing to jury rig and try. Use double sided tape to attach a small shallow "V" block of wood to your receiver. Use more tape to set a short (1/2") tube (copper or stainless steel) on the V block. Try 3/8", 1/2" and 5/8" tubing to see what works best for you.

I use a peep sight with the disk removed to achieve a "ghost sight" for one of my Cowboy Action lever actions. It is very fast to use. I put the front sight on the target and it is a hit every time.

I expect the end of the rib will become your "front sight" or reference point. Your brain will want to find something to align.

Don Verna

 

[joe kuhn]

Thanks for the ideas fellas. I'd like to respond to Bob who said, "If you are using two eyes how can the gun block out your field of view?"

The gun is in front of my dominant eye and since I'm holding the gun even, it's blocking the view, EXCEPT for my non-dominant eye, which is the point. My non-dominant eye is not blocked, my brain switches and we're off to a bad start.

And Bob, you said, "All I can say to that statement is it goes against all the principals of the art of shooting. Of course what I say doesn't matter on this site."

It does matter what you say here. I think we pass by each other in terms of understanding. I do agree with the shooting principals that you mention and figured that was understood, so I left it out of my post. That's one of the reasons I'm pursuing options here. It's bad habit forming. Someone once said, what difference does it make if you stay with the Holosight. Consider it an advantage. That's a good point too, but I've found myself back with a standard sight system for other reasons.

I like Don's idea for testing. Will soon have a stock setup to use thanks to Brian. Am looking on line for options, but all the pictures of ghost sights are from the side at a funny angle so I really can't see what I'd see after it's mounted on the gun.

 

[ivanhoe]

"The gun is in front of my dominant eye and since I'm holding the gun even, it's blocking the view, EXCEPT for my non-dominant eye, which is the point. My non-dominant eye is not blocked, my brain switches and we're off to a bad start"

Joe I am not going to argue this with you. If it is what you believe then that is up to you.

I will however ask you to try something. Look out over the trap house then mount your gun with out looking at it and tell me what part of the trap house or any object you choose to use can't you see? If you can say to me that their is something you can't see then you have other problems.

Remember now do not look at the gun look out over the trap or if using an object try to block it out with the gun barrel. All I can tell you is I can't block anything with both eyes open unless I hold the forearm or receiver up high enough to block it out. The barrel will not block anything out.

BTW block it out to me means not to be able to see under it or behind it.

Bob Lawless

 

[Brian in Oregon]

<i>"red dot stays on target even if you move your head off the stock"</i>

<i>"All I can say to that statement is it goes against all the principals of the art of shooting. Of course what I say doesn't matter on this site."</i>

It depends on the type of red dot sight. With many quality red dot sights, a slight eye misalignment will not affect accuracy. With many poor quality red dots, any misalignment will result in a POA/POI shift. Note that most red dot sights have some parallax to them.

The holographic sights are especially forgiving of eye misalignment. In particular the EOTech series. This is because the dot is not in a focal plane at the sight, but is holographically projected onto the target. If you are aiming at a target 100 yards away, the dot will be at that point, as if a laser beam projected it there. And the holographic sights are parallax free. This is why the EOTech makes a great combat sight. If mud, dirt, or even broken glass screws up the middle of the sight, you can move your eye and use the edge areas and still retain accuracy.

 

[Brian in Oregon]

<i>"I use a peep sight with the disk removed to achieve a "ghost sight" for one of my Cowboy Action lever actions. It is very fast to use. I put the front sight on the target and it is a hit every time."</i>

I found the rear sight blurred out so much as to make it useless to me. I do best with a large target disc with a large hole in it. Makes a very distinct dark circle. Very fast for me.

<i>"I expect the end of the rib will become your "front sight" or reference point. Your brain will want to find something to align."</i>

And it will probably result in a very high POI, knowing how Joe sets up his eye alignment.

 

[EXFDX]

Doesn't this all sort of amount to a massive "bead check"? Are we talking about actually, visually putting the barrel or front sight or end of the gun or whatever ON the target? I remove the beads from my guns because they fascinate me and I can't seem to take my eyes off of them and I will bead check almost every time. VERY sorry if I am missing something here.

Doc

 

[joe kuhn]

Bob - we're beginning to communicate.

Let me ask you to do this:

Mount your gun even and close your non-dominant eye. Look down to the edge of the trap house just in front of your gun. You can't see it and will have to look to one side or the other. The gun blocks your dominant eye from seeing plenty.

Now close the other eye. You're able to see what you were trying to see before.

Put the two together and I believe we've arrived at what you're talking about.

What I'm talking about is switching from non-dominant eye peek to a hard focus of both eyes on the target (Doc) between the time you call for the bird and strike the trigger. That change isn't working for me as I've gotten older.

It's the change from set up to break. I'm not talking about just the setup.

 

[ivanhoe]

Joe I don't understand "SETUP" I do exactly as I have said I focus on the area where the target should appear and mount my gun. I do not under any circumstances look back at the gun.

So what is do I set up? If I looked back at the end of my gun I couldn't hit a bull in the A** with a flyswatter.

BTW just how old have you gotten to be?....LOL

Bob Lawless

 

[dverna]

Doc,

I am convinced that some sort of reference is needed by most shooters. Be it a bead, or the end of the barrel, or top of the rib.

We do not "look at it" but it is there in our peripheral vision and that is how we establish target/gun relationship (sight picture?) and leads.

It may not be needed for all shooters but they will be the exception.

Don Verna

 

[EXFDX]

Okay, Don, thanks. I get what you are saying. I always see it in my periphery. But like Bob Lawless, if I ever look at the bead during the "setup", it's going to be a lost bird unless I start over. I hold low (somewhere) on the house and soft-focus out to where I expect to pick up the bird.

Doc

 

[joe kuhn]

My setup is a mounted gun, held even, looking down at the lip of the trap house where the target will emerge.

I agree with Don - you need something for your peripheral vision to key on and tell you're brain to fire. My Holosight battery went dead once and I tried to continue shooting. I'm telling you, there's no clue about when to pull the trigger. It's a helpless feeling. I shot 1/5 at that station, my last of the round.

 

[joe kuhn]

From another thread where Mike Campbell said,

"A ghost ring on a shotgun.....I never thought of that. Are there such things? It's an intriguing idea but it hurts my head trying to think how it would work. The rear ghost rings I've used still rely on a bead up front. The advantage is that my "automatically" centers the bead and I don't have to consciously try to line up the front and rear. Seems like the holosite/red dot concept is the same only more sophisticated. I knew a fella in the early 90's who shot sporting clays pretty well with an aim point/red dot arrangement. He was good enough to raise eyebrows but not great. No way to know whether he was limited by his equipment or his own ability"

You can get a ghost ring for a shotgun, but they include a front sight as well, which might be unnecessary. The holosight is a fancy version, but because of the parallax correction, they may not support good form. The red circle will stay on the target even when you move your face from the comb. As we all know, you need to stay on the comb and in the gun and pivot at the waist. So I'm figuring a ghost ring takes the parallax correction away, but still gives your brain something to key on as it crosses the target. The target is where you still need to look even with a Holosight. It's still the same game.

I think it's worth a try without the front bead that comes with them. They're alot cheaper and don't need batteries.