Trapshooters Forum banner

1 - 20 of 67 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,264 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I watched part of 60-Minutes last evening - the part about Ghost Guns. I suppose it's possible that there is a loophole that allows manufacturers to make gun parts that can be assembled into a functioning gun. But, given the current state of hysteria about guns, in general, I have to wonder how this is still possible?

First, they're real guns but without a serial number - and there is at least one school shooting where the perp used one.

They require some fitting and assembly, but it looks like that isn't too difficult. There are YouTube videos that demonstrate how to do it.

One dealer in CA, Dimitrios Karras, reports that between 300,000 and 500,000 individual units have passed through his hands in the past 10 years.

I find it completely baffling that the ghost guns are so readily available at a time in history when legitimate guns are getting more difficult to obtain.

What am I missing?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
210 Posts
Evidently by law anyone can manufacture a firearm for their own use but not to sell. Since the receiver is not a finished part it is not a receiver at all but just a lump of materiel. I am not well versed at all on firearms rules.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,593 Posts
The more common name for these is "80% receivers" - in that they are roughly 80% finished (per BATFE regulation). You must do the last 20% yourself. Not so easy. You need some decent machining skills, or a mill set up to do the work for you.

The California guy had the mill and would rent the use of it out for people to finish their own guns. Once the receiver was finished he could then help them assemble the rest of the gun.

Yes, federal law allows you to manufacture your own firearm, and no, it does not need a serial number.

You can run afoul of the law if you try to sell it - not sure how they would deal with one owned by an estate after the builder died...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,889 Posts
I suppose it's possible that there is a loophole that allows manufacturers to make gun parts that can be assembled into a functioning gun.
It's not.

The regulated part of a firearm, the receiver, must bear a serial number and go through the same transfer process as a complete firearm.

Any citizen that can legally own a firearm can legally produce a firearm. The ATF has stated that a partially finished receiver for which at least 20% of the operations have not been completed is not considered a firearm, and can be sold just as you would a block of metal. Machining still needs to be completed on this "80% receiver", and all the subsequent parts need to be assembled and installed.

The debatable part is at what point do you consider block of metal a receiver? When it's a block of metal? When one hole has been drilled? When one hole has been threaded? When one pass on a mill has been taken? The line between 0% and 80% is fairly grey.

At the end of the day, an 80% receiver is only a convenience, allowing the more difficult processes to be completed by a manufacturer, while still requiring the end user to complete the job. Anyone with a block of metal, a file, and time can turn out a functional firearm. Anyone with a CNC machine can turn out a perfect receiver if they want to.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,131 Posts
The numbers sure got bumped up by the media...

The owner of a California gun parts store that was raided by Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco Firearms and Explosives agents Saturday said that they tried to strike a secret deal with him for the names of his approximate 5,000 customers.

Ares Armor owner Dimitrios Karras told The Blaze in an interview that the agents had told him, “‘Listen, we know you’re a legitimate business. We know you’re doing everything fine. Hand over the list of names, hand over this particular product that we have now deemed to be a firearm and everything’s going to be fine. Nobody will know about it. It will be swept under the rug.’”

At issue was whether one of Ares’ product lines, a composite “80% lower receiver” for an AR-15 rifle, constituted a “firearm” under federal law.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,889 Posts
You can run afoul of the law if you try to sell it - not sure how they would deal with one owned by an estate after the builder died...
As a private individual, you cannot produce firearms with the INTENTION to sell them, but you can still legally sell a firearm that you produced yourself, including one with a 80% lower. I believe at that point it DOES need to be serialized however (although if I recall correctly this just includes your name, city/state, and a made up number, all can be done with a Harbor Freight punch set if you want).

One or two, no problem, but if you're doing a dozen of them and selling them in a short period of time, it's going to raise eyebrows.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
5,216 Posts
they are roughly 80% finished (per BATFE regulation)
Not true.

The BATFE does not regulate in any way what constitutes an "80%" receiver.

What is an “80%” or “unfinished" receiver?
“80% receiver,” “80% finished,” “80% complete” and “unfinished receiver” are all terms referring to an item that some may believe has not yet reached a stage of manufacture that meets the definition of "firearm frame" or "receiver" according to the Gun Control Act (GCA). These are not statutory terms and ATF does not use or endorse them.

Source: What is an “80%” or “unfinished" receiver? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,889 Posts
The numbers sure got bumped up by the media...

The owner of a California gun parts store that was raided by Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco Firearms and Explosives agents Saturday said that they tried to strike a secret deal with him for the names of his approximate 5,000 customers.

Ares Armor owner Dimitrios Karras told The Blaze in an interview that the agents had told him, “‘Listen, we know you’re a legitimate business. We know you’re doing everything fine. Hand over the list of names, hand over this particular product that we have now deemed to be a firearm and everything’s going to be fine. Nobody will know about it. It will be swept under the rug.’”

At issue was whether one of Ares’ product lines, a composite “80% lower receiver” for an AR-15 rifle, constituted a “firearm” under federal law.
Doing some quick refresher research, the issue was HOW the poly lowers were being produced. What they did was kind of "grey area of grey area" type stuff. They were creating poly lowers with differentially colored sections to show you what had to be removed (I don't remember the colors, but say the lower was black, and the material that had to be removed was yellow).

What .gov claimed was that the lowers were molded first, then the removal section was inserted second. This would constitute a complete receiver since it was created in a completed form, then for lack of a better explaination, filled in. What Ares contended was the removal section was created FIRST, and the lower was molded around it, meaning it never existed as a complete fully functional lower at any point in time.

Tangentially, you can now buy a AR15 lower MOLD, and cast your own complete fully functional lower receiver in two part plastic. You can also 3d print a fully functional lower receiver and in fact a complete fully functional firearm, which renders most arguments against "ghost guns" moot unless you want to start licensing 3d printers as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,889 Posts
Not true.

The BATFE does not regulate in any way what constitutes an "80%" receiver.
But as a manufacturer of "80% receivers", you can submit a sample to the ATF for a determination letter as to whether or not they would classify it as a receiver. So while they won't say that something IS an 80% receiver, they WILL say if what you submitted constitutes a receiver or not, which is basically the same thing with more steps. "80% receiver" is basically a colloquialism or term of art describing a receiver that is partially completed but not to the level that the ATF considers it a firearm.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,831 Posts
With long guns what's the difference, you can sell a long gun face to face here, as many times as you want, what good is a SN when it would hard to trace a long gun that may be 20 years old and changed hands 20 times.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
512 Posts
The dividing line for an 80% firearm frame is the cavity/location of the fire control parts - hammer, trigger, sear, etc. You should not be able to assemble any of the fire control parts in the "80%" part without modification. The BATF has said that dimples left in a casting that show where holes are to be drilled is not "80%" finished.

In an 80% lower AR receiver, the portions that house the fire control parts are not machined at all. It is up to the owner to mill the cavity and locate/drill holes for the trigger, hammer and safety pins. An 80% Glock frame is similar in concept - the cavity where the striker, trigger, etc. go needs to be milled out and a few holes drilled in order to finish the frame. Once that is done, a child can assemble the rest of the firearm.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,593 Posts
Not true.

The BATFE does not regulate in any way what constitutes an "80%" receiver.

Yeah, try running that one past a BATFE agent.

This is the same group trying to call an item that fires a gun with a single pull of the trigger a 'fully automatic weapon' (see 'bump stock')

The same group that, per it's own regulation defines a 'receiver' as the portion of a gun designed to house the trigger group, the firing pin & hammer, the bolt, and have the attachment point for the barrel - and can you tell which part of an AR-15 matches this definition??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,599 Posts
What am I missing?
The fact it has been a legal practice since the country was founded and you have fallen victim to another hysteria job by the media. The government has known about the existence of ghost guns for decades, unless it is Alexandria Oretega Cortez and similar idiots. Prisoners in confinement have made guns while in prison. While crude they are effective.
 
  • Like
Reactions: phatkaw

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,599 Posts
I know I will be thought of obstinate on this, but people are so snowed by the left that when they ask “why are these guns legal,” we should say, “why should they not?” We should not be surprised or defensive about our arms that we have a right to bear, we should say “So what, 60 minutes, what’s your point?” Try to think like Trump does.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
5,216 Posts
Yeah, try running that one past a BATFE agent.

This is the same group trying to call an item that fires a gun with a single pull of the trigger a 'fully automatic weapon' (see 'bump stock')

The same group that, per it's own regulation defines a 'receiver' as the portion of a gun designed to house the trigger group, the firing pin & hammer, the bolt, and have the attachment point for the barrel - and can you tell which part of an AR-15 matches this definition??
None of that changes the fact that what you posted was wrong.

Just admit it.

You posted bullshit and then got your feelings hurt.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,593 Posts
None of that changes the fact that what you posted was wrong.

Just admit it.

You posted bullshit and then got your feelings hurt.
I have worked in gun shops for enough years dealing with BATFE agents to be rather comfortable in what I have said.

Most agents have rather large egos in terms of they are right and you (the gun shop) are wrong. You have two options at that point. One is to play along the other is to call them out - and deal with the $h!t storm they can bring.

For the last 50 plus years ATF considers the lower portion of an AR receiver to be "the receiver" and requires it to be serialized.

By their own regulations this is not the case.

Try playing that one out.

But sure - you know exactly what you are saying...
 
1 - 20 of 67 Posts
Top