Front Bead Question
I recently started a thread in the Gunsmithing section about how to lower an adjustable comb to make my poi lower. Surprisingly a few folks suggested raising the front bead. I say "surprisingly" because, for me, if I am looking at the bead I'm not focusing on clay. So, just curious, how many shooters actually take the bead into account when actually shooting... aiming vs. pointing the gun? I rely on eye-hand coordination learned with a specific gun over an extended period of shooting, and hard focus on the clay. In sporting clays, in my periphery I am aware of the barrel's relative presence, but focus on the bead? Not me. How about you?
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Seems to me like you are talking about different things here. First off, you would have to look at your bead alignment while shouldering your gun to determine where your POI would be. Then off to the pattern board to determine the actual POI. Now then, you would need to adjust your gun fit by raising or lowering the comb or front head. Once the proper gun fit is determined and POI is set, then when you are shooting you would not need to worry about the bead position. If the gun fits and shoots where you point it, then the target should break. I need a flat shooting gun and set mine up that way. Once set, then I really don’t care about the beads, I just point and shoot. Those fast crossers don’t give me time to look at the beads and the target. Obviously you’re not supposed to bead check anyway. Anyhow, your original post asks two questions that to me are not directly related.
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People can see the bead while focusing on the target. Simple way to prove. Focus on a distant object and while fixed on that object raise you arm and hand that you support the fore arm of your gun and point your finger at that object, then look at where your finger is. Do it quick with a smooth motion.
If you are an average person with good hand and eye co-ordination when you look at your finger it will be under your master eye, usually under or right on the object you are focused on. This is your off hand under your dominant eye. If necessary try it with you your non dominant eye closed.
I learned this over 40 years ago while receiving professional firearms training. It was used in part to determine dominant eye and explain instinctive shooting. People do not have to look at their finger to point at an object. Same should be with a shotgun, if it is set up shoot where you are looking and that requires proper gun fit.
If you are an average person with good hand and eye co-ordination when you look at your finger it will be under your master eye, usually under or right on the object you are focused on. This is your off hand under your dominant eye. If necessary try it with you your non dominant eye closed.
I learned this over 40 years ago while receiving professional firearms training. It was used in part to determine dominant eye and explain instinctive shooting. People do not have to look at their finger to point at an object. Same should be with a shotgun, if it is set up shoot where you are looking and that requires proper gun fit.
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As Rick said, you see the bead, but you are not focused on it.
Beads are on a shotgun for two purposes. 1. Shooting static targets, though if a shotgun is to be used only for that, there are better options. 2. For checking gun mount upon shouldering. The mind shunts the bead to the subconscious as you change focus to the distance in anticipation of a target. Originally, mid beads were used to be sure the eye was lined up straight behind the front bead-the idea was the the mid bead disappeared into the front bead, giving the preferred rear sight (eye) height for field shooting and Skeet. Trap shooters soon figured out getting the eye up higher gave a higher POI, desirable in trap shooting. The mid bead was a handy reference to check height on shouldering also, but with the mid bead below the frond bead, and the terms 'snowman' and 'figure 8' came into use. Some who have the bead farther apart may use the term "colon" (no giggling, I mean the punctuation mark-though colon does occasionally describe the nut behind the trigger...
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Once raised ribs (Simmons, et al.) started showing up on Trap guns, shooters found they could have even higher POI's by still using a 'snowman' type sight picture, and some liked it. My Ljutic has the Mid Rib (Or Centennial rib, if you prefer) on it, and with the comb all the way down, it shoots 70/30 for me, which I prefer. Were I to put the comb all the way up I'd be at 100% or more for me. For another shooter, it might be 60/40 as is, and 80/20 all the way up. It all depends on how one mounts the gun, facial structure, and and neck length.
One can adjust oneself to the gun, somewhat, and shoot well, but when you can bring the gun up to the shoulder with your eyes closed, and it is pointing where you are looking when you open your eyes, you will have to come up with another excuse for your losses.
I shot a 200 bird singles event last week, and about half of my lost birds were from poor gun mount. Most of those I knew it before I called for the bird, but chose not to pull the gun down and remount. Had I done so, I might have won my class, or at least some Lewis money.
Beads are on a shotgun for two purposes. 1. Shooting static targets, though if a shotgun is to be used only for that, there are better options. 2. For checking gun mount upon shouldering. The mind shunts the bead to the subconscious as you change focus to the distance in anticipation of a target. Originally, mid beads were used to be sure the eye was lined up straight behind the front bead-the idea was the the mid bead disappeared into the front bead, giving the preferred rear sight (eye) height for field shooting and Skeet. Trap shooters soon figured out getting the eye up higher gave a higher POI, desirable in trap shooting. The mid bead was a handy reference to check height on shouldering also, but with the mid bead below the frond bead, and the terms 'snowman' and 'figure 8' came into use. Some who have the bead farther apart may use the term "colon" (no giggling, I mean the punctuation mark-though colon does occasionally describe the nut behind the trigger...
)Once raised ribs (Simmons, et al.) started showing up on Trap guns, shooters found they could have even higher POI's by still using a 'snowman' type sight picture, and some liked it. My Ljutic has the Mid Rib (Or Centennial rib, if you prefer) on it, and with the comb all the way down, it shoots 70/30 for me, which I prefer. Were I to put the comb all the way up I'd be at 100% or more for me. For another shooter, it might be 60/40 as is, and 80/20 all the way up. It all depends on how one mounts the gun, facial structure, and and neck length.
One can adjust oneself to the gun, somewhat, and shoot well, but when you can bring the gun up to the shoulder with your eyes closed, and it is pointing where you are looking when you open your eyes, you will have to come up with another excuse for your losses.
I shot a 200 bird singles event last week, and about half of my lost birds were from poor gun mount. Most of those I knew it before I called for the bird, but chose not to pull the gun down and remount. Had I done so, I might have won my class, or at least some Lewis money.
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POA and POI are different.
Think of the difference between the two as the shotgun’s manufacturer covering the vertical lead. Your ability will determine the correct horizontal lead. The better you are, the higher your average hit targets.
Think of the difference between the two as the shotgun’s manufacturer covering the vertical lead. Your ability will determine the correct horizontal lead. The better you are, the higher your average hit targets.
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What’s this bead you speak of? I’ve shot instinctively all my life. Probably why I peaked in high school.
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Murph, it's simple. Once you discovered girls and therefore personal hygiene you no longer shot in-stink-tively.
No, he shot with his fingers.
Maybe you're not looking at the bead, but I believe you see it in your subconscious. So if you're use to seeing the bird above your bead and the bead is now taller the gun will be pointed down a little bit.
12gak80 - you just have to look ahead of the bird 10 feet. Many a good shooter looks ahead where they want the shot to intercept the bird, but don't admit it.
Maybe you're not looking at the bead, but I believe you see it in your subconscious. So if you're use to seeing the bird above your bead and the bead is now taller the gun will be pointed down a little bit.
12gak80 - you just have to look ahead of the bird 10 feet. Many a good shooter looks ahead where they want the shot to intercept the bird, but don't admit it.
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I believe the term your looking for is called---peripheral vision!!!
Yes, the sub-conscience part the of the human brain will place the bead (in the peripheral vision) in the proper place (called sight picture) while the conscience part of his brain is watching the target. This is how you properly shoot a target. When the shot is done. The shooter can't really say what his lead was for that shot. The shot just happened. break em all jeff
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Here's one interpretation from the mount and continuing up to taking the shot
Credit/Quote from Daro Handy's book:
"The eye should find the front bead about 80% through the gun's upswing. When the bead settles on the trap house hold, hesitate slightly and call. Look for the target with a soft-medium look. Staying on & seeing the bead a little clearer and closer than you think, will bring better results. Never look for the target until it clears the barrel-rib-bead area. It is super important that you hold the eye dead still down the rib-bead zone path area until the target appears above the rib to accomplish this feat."
Credit/Quote from Daro Handy's book:
"The eye should find the front bead about 80% through the gun's upswing. When the bead settles on the trap house hold, hesitate slightly and call. Look for the target with a soft-medium look. Staying on & seeing the bead a little clearer and closer than you think, will bring better results. Never look for the target until it clears the barrel-rib-bead area. It is super important that you hold the eye dead still down the rib-bead zone path area until the target appears above the rib to accomplish this feat."
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