I also want to know about this, but i supose that we need a pattern test with same barrel before and after the forcing cone job
Mike orlen do this job
You can read in his price list about lenghtening the forcing cones
Where Can I Get Good Shotgun Barrel Work Done?
Browning have some overbore barrels with lenghtened cones since im a kid, gti and others

 

Hi rallen, when I have tested standard forcing cone guns against similar ones with long forcing cones, they have performed similarly:

but in those cases I didn't know how they performed before the cone work was done. So I did it one gun, patterning before and after the modification:

As a final test, I had Perazzi build me a gun with "classic" dimensions: short forcing cone, 2 3/4" chamber, 0.724" bore and 0,040" choke and compared it with a Perazzi of 2009 design. It was 0.740 bore, 3" chamber, a longer forcing cone, 0.040" choke. They performed about the same.

Pattern evenness was the same:

And pattern spread was the same:

My tests tell me that long forcing cones do not differ from short ones in terms of shooting performance, and since there has never been any reasonable explanation why guns with longer forcing cones should kick less, I don't think it helps anything at all.

Yours in Sport,

Neil

 

The forcing cone has nothing to do with felt recoil. The long forcing cone concept was to squeeze the pellets together instead of jamming them as they left the chamber. The idea was less shot deformation. That's it.

 

Neil, thanks for your reply

Now im shooting more with 7/8 shots than 1oz or 1 1/8

Do you pattern your diferent bores barrels .724 vs 740 with same chokes but with difrent pellet quantity 7/8 vs 1 oz ?

I have the idea that 7/8 is better on a 724 barrel

 

No, Eduardo, I've never specifically compared one oz. or 7/8 oz. loads in different barrel diameters. However, I did use 0.724 in my comments here:

http://www.trapshooters.com/posts/5868945/

My general finding has been that barrel diameter is not a factor in shotgun performance.

http://www.claytargettesting.com/Bore_Diameter/Bore_Diameter.pdf

I hope to soon have a report on my website, claytargettesting.com, testing Mr. Muller's claim that larger bores in shotguns lead to larger patterns. That's not where you got that idea, is it?

Yours in Sport,

Neil

 

Thanks
Then Bore diameter dont affect pattern

 

Then Bore diameter dont affect pattern

This I can`t answer for sure. Maybe Neil can.

 

Neil is a treasure, always have thought a lot so called improvements were mostly in the head. Have I done all this stuff? of course!

 

Soon I'll be able to post another way to answer this question. Maybe a week...

Neil

 

The idea was less shot deformation. That's it.

Shotgun history may hold the answer to forcing cones and why they were necessary in the old guns and ammo. Paper and felt wadding didn't seal as our all plastic wad bases do with todays ammo. Harder lead helps also because it doesn't deform like the old chilled shot did.

That's how Neil's graphs prove there's hardly any differences in todays ammo and guns no matter the forcing cone configuration!

Todays plastic wad base shapes are for the most part acceptable to most any but radical bored guns. The 10 ga. barrels (.800) (12 ga chambers) are finicky about wad base choice though! In colder weather not very useful at all!

HAP

 

Neil, thanks for your reply

Now im shooting more with 7/8 shots than 1oz or 1 1/8

Do you pattern your diferent bores barrels .724 vs 740 with same chokes but with difrent pellet quantity 7/8 vs 1 oz ?

I have the idea that 7/8 is better on a 724 barrel

Hola Eduardo! Espero que estés bien.

I shoot bunker (fosa olímpica) with a .750 bore and when I move the gun properly, the targets break just fine. Most of the time on the first barrel, I use a light mod choke, which Briley has labeled .016. Second barrel is Light Full, which Briley has labeled .032. Both barrels/chokes break targets just fine at the associated 1st shot/2nd shot distances. Just yesterday, for practice/learning, I shot some Federal Top Gun Target 24gm #8s at 1200fps and found that they broke targets just as well as the B&P F 2-4 Trap 24 #7 1/2 shells at 1361 fps. Remember, once the "hardware" is adequate, the the rest of the solution is software. So, learn how to point/move the gun and sooner than later the targets will be breaking as often as you do your part correctly. Suerte!

 

Recoil is a function of payload weight, acceleration and speed as compared with gun weight.

FELT recoil also factors in the design and height of the stock, the recoil pad type and size and other subjective matters. For instance I don't bruise, ever. I've had a busted sternum with not a mark on my skin. My lady gets an egg on her cheek after a few rounds that looks like she lost an argument with Katie Holmes. She feels it; I don't. Doesn't make me tougher or stronger than her (I suspect very much the reverse is true), it just makes me different.

I don't see how a longer forcing cone could effect either absolute or felt recoil. Unless you pay a heap to have it done, of course. In that case you'll be telling everyone it worked.

 

I don't see how a longer forcing cone could effect either absolute or felt recoil. Unless you pay a heap to have it done, of course. In that case you'll be telling everyone it worked.

THIS IS THE ANSWER!

 

People have been talking about how the long forcing cone on the Beretta DT11 reduces felt recoil. I finally got my hands on one and fired a round of skeet with it. It did seem to recoil less than my DT10, however it’s also very noticeably heavier. I personally don’t put any stock in the longer forcing cones. I think it’s just another way to market a gun.

 

Tim99, what if a shooter decided to use nothing except the cheapest chilled shot he could find? Would that answer be an absolute in that case?

HAP

 

The forcing cone has nothing to do with felt recoil. The long forcing cone concept was to squeeze the pellets together instead of jamming them as they left the chamber. The idea was less shot deformation. That's it.

Nonsense. When I was shooting my Superposed Broadway, it beat the snot out of me. I had the forcing cones lengthened and it tamed recoil enough for me to shoot it comfortably. BTW, PE was lower after lengthening by a couple percent.

 

I had the forcing cones lengthened and it tamed recoil enough for me to shoot it comfortably.

All I can say is keep filling there wallets with your forcing cone money. Whatever works best for you.

 

How does that work, zzt? The recoil, I mean. After all, when the shot is clearing the forcing cone the gun has only moved 1/100 or 2/100 inches.

And when I look at recoil tables, I see no correction for forcing-cone length (or pressure, or powder, or bore-diameter or Santaria Vodou with which they all have much in common.) Though I have noticed that sacrificing a couple of chickens cuts down on muzzle-jump about as well as changing stock pitch.

Neil

 

How does that work, zzt? The recoil, I mean. After all, when the shot is clearing the forcing cone the gun has only moved 1/100 or 2/100 inches.

And when I look at recoil tables, I see no correction for forcing-cone length (or pressure, or powder, or bore-diameter or any of the rest of that magical stuff.)

Neil

Those tables you have are not the highly classified and guarded data sets that the barrel molesters compile for their own use. You are obviously not vetted for that level of data. I'd be surprised if you EVER gain access to it with your attitude about methodologies and publishing history.
The term "heretic" springs to mind.

 

The forcing cone has nothing to do with felt recoil. The long forcing cone concept was to squeeze the pellets together instead of jamming them as they left the chamber. The idea was less shot deformation. That's it.

Mr.Winston's data would suggest that was/is a bogus idea. And it looks like he even tried to make one shoot "worse" by incorporating all the bad features of the older guns. And failed. It still shot just fine. Well, wadda ya know!
I feel lots better now knowing that the outdated, outmoded, unmolested guns in my safe are gonna be OK and I don't have to do anything to them.

WOW!! What relief!!!!

 

Since we know pretty much nothing affects recoil of the same loads of speed and weight from the same gun, do larger bores or backboring affect recoil? .740 or larger for an example compared to say, .722.

What is the average change in width of a 75 percent pattern from a modified, to full choke? I would imagine distance would be a factor on this like 16 yds. to 27 yds.

 

Hello. Comments from Neil and Tim are very well stated and backed up by hard and unbiased research presented on this forum! I accept the fact that I am an unabashed techno dummy. That said, I have never understood why a shooter will spend lots of hard-earned dollars buying the best gun he/she can afford and then question the built-in design and quality of the new gun's barrel performance. Why would someone think the engineers and designers of quality firearms not put their best research and thinking into their manufacturing processes and resulting products? Yeah, I know, somebody will always claim they have figured out how to "improve" your mousetrap and provide glowing words to create optimistic expectations. But gimme a break. Do we really think tinkering with a chamber or bore is going to overcome the technical expertise of the barrel manufacturer? I'm from Missouri...Show Me. Hasn't happened yet. Flame Away, but Regards, Ed

 

I've noticed that moving the mid-bead 1/8" back has altered the balance on my gun.

It must have. Cost me a fortune.

 

...And another thing...do NOT forget that if you sell or trade your dimensionally improved barrel(s) off to your friend, rlative, or dealer and the new owner blows up and injures, wounds, or kills him/herself or a bystander, you will enjoy the privilege of explaining and defending your involvement in the evidence trail. You might even get to $pend $ome/all of your trap winning$ with a high priced lawyer. Regards, Ed

 

Get a copy of shotgun modification by Tom C Roster.

 

Here is a teaser for u last ship, this ship types; is ur f cone considered lengthened if it is downstream of a 3 inch chamber?

 

Neil wrote: "Though I have noticed that sacrificing a couple of chickens cuts down on muzzle-jump about as well as changing stock pitch."

 

Yes bore diameter does affect the pattern, how can it not?

Construction works: bore diameter alone has no discernible effect. Shotgun bore diameter differences do nothing. Changing constriction does, but that hardly makes a few thousandths in bore diameter meaningful.

The Grand Lie of Back-Boring

 

This use to make me Cringe... Back in the 90`s at some of the major trap shoots I would see somebody purchase an expensive new trapgun, take it to a gunsmith on the grounds and then with a hand reamer lengthen the forcing cones...

Sportalluring