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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I am trying to resurrect a 1927 Winchester Model 12 (30" barrel, full choke, solid rib) for use in the field and nostalgia shoots. Ran into a couple issues I am hoping to get some insight on from the experts here. Simmons is backed up for a couple months with work and I havent found a model 12 gunsmith in Omaha yet. I do have the AGI model 12 video and have watched it all the way through and feel comfortable disassembling the trigger and bolt.

It was rescued from the racks outside the Cabela's Gun Library. It has had a rough life but I plan to fix it and use it. I will keep the problems to individual thread for clarity.

Symptom:
When action is closed and bolt is locked up, the slide lock release button is impossible to push. It takes a good thump with a screwdriver handle to get it to release the slide. No amount of forward movement on the fore-arm will help release it.

If I needed to unload a live round from the gun, it would be near impossible on the line.

If I pull the trigger and then push the fore-arm forward slightly, the slide will then release and cycle fine. This is normal procedure I believe.
Observations:
The button is still stuck when the trigger group is out of the receiver ruling out any receiver to trigger group interference.
When pressed, the hook on the action bar slide lock is supposed to ride up on a bump on the hammer. In my case, the hook and the hammer bump are not aligned properly. The hook is just far enough below the edge of the hammer bump so it cannot engage. The hammer simply hits the front edge of the hook and stops moving.

Both spring wires on the action bar slide lock are present and functioning.
Solution:
Slightly file the tip of the hook so that it can engage the hammer properly??
It has definately been apart before. The "peen" marks on the trigger group screws were not lined up in a couple cases.

Photos:

How it should work when the button is pressed. ( I pushed the hammer back manually and then pressed the front of the action bar slide lock to engage it)
image2.JPG


This is as far as it goes if I push the button only. the hook hits the edge of the hammer ramp and does not ride up on it.
image3.JPG

Just a photo showing the part and that the springs are still intact and functional.
image4.JPG

Thanks.
 

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I would venture to say one of the wires probably broke at one time and instead of replacing it they swapped out the entire lever.

Although these guns were largely machine made , certain parts need to be fit to function properly.

I would think Guns Unlimited there in Omaha would be able to give you some advise as who to use for a Smith.



Regards.....Gerald
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I would venture to say one of the wires probably broke at one time and instead of replacing it they swapped out the entire lever.

Although these guns were largely machine made , certain parts need to be fit to function properly.

I would think Guns Unlimited there in Omaha would be able to give you some advise as who to use for a Smith.



Regards.....Gerald
Thanks Gerald.

I suspect that also. Someone told me to use Bill Voss but they didnt have any contact info for him. If it is as simple as using a needle file on that hook, I would like to do it myself as a learning experience.
 

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Do not file the hook! The problem you are having is called a "short trigger".

When an attempt is made to adjust the trigger pull on a M-12, most everyone messes with the end of the trigger that engages with the hammer notch. When they do this, material is removed from the tip of the trigger, thus allowing the hammer to rotate a bit forward. When too much material is removed, and the hammer rotated too far forward, the hook on the action bar release cannot climb over the knob on the hammer and secure it from the trigger while opening the gun. The hook should pull the hammer back slightly while opening the action. This prevents the hammer from dropping if the trigger is pulled when the bolt is not in battery.

If you can find a new trigger...it will be long and needs to be timed. I generally weld the trigger tip and reshape.

When someone says their M-12 is out of time, the hammer can be dropped just prior to lock-up.

If the hook appears to be filed on, the action bar release will need to be replaced also and the timing adjusted....or welded to correct the timing.

Doug
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The "hook" on the action slide release has not been filed that I can tell. The blueing is just worn off where it hits the knob on the hammer. My issue is the hook cannot climb over the hammer knob at all. The tip of the hook is hitting the edge of the knob on the hammer and will not ramp over it. I posted the wrong photo above. I will correct that.

Here is the issue. This is what is happening if I push the button with the hammer cocked.

image3.JPG
 

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I've owned three Model 12 guns. I've taken them all apart and learned as best as I could, how they work.

But I bought them to shoot. When they gave me any trouble, I sent them off to a reputable gunsmith who returned to me a like new gun, mechanically.

I'd recommend anyone else do the same, because in each instance, each gunsmith had forgotten more about the Model 12 than I'd ever know.

My 2 cents...
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I've owned three Model 12 guns. I've taken them all apart and learned as best as I could, how they work.

But I bought them to shoot. When they gave me any trouble, I sent them off to a reputable gunsmith who returned to me a like new gun, mechanically.

I'd recommend anyone else do the same, because in each instance, each gunsmith had forgotten more about the Model 12 than I'd ever know.

My 2 cents...
Thanks Pat. Valid points but your motivation is different than mine. I certainly bought it to shoot, but also to learn on. It is an old mistreated trade-in gun from Cabela's with no sentimental value. Seems like the perfect platform to learn some minimal gun repair skills and end up with a gun that should shoot for another 90 years.

I am certainly aware that a reputable gunsmith could fix it faster, cheaper and better than I can, but then I miss the opportunity to learn how to do it. Heck, half my possessions are old junk that I bought to take apart, analyze how it functions, repair bits and pieces and then use or pass on to my son who has the same trait.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks everyone for your feedback and suggestions. I was able to dress up the hook with a needle file but only took off maybe 5-6 thousandths. Dial caliper want tricky to measure with on that angled hook. Polished it up and it works perfectly now. It passed all safety and trigger and hammer checks I could find to perform.

On to the next problem. Sloppy loose magazine tube and sticky barrel adjustment sleeve.
 

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Glad you got it working.
The best text I've found so far is titled: Sequence of Take-Down and Assembly Operations. Mod. 12. I got on ebay.
Printed by Olin/Winchester it is about as informative as I've found.
Years ago there was an in-depth Gunsmithing factory manual by Winchester covering all Winchester shotguns on ebay.
It was definitely for the professional Smith, but at 100. (if I recall) I didn't think it was worth it to me.
It showed a lot of machining operations on some pretty sophisticated equipment.

But like Gun Dr. says: you have to be very careful what you do.

Regards.....Gerald
 

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When you want to run the action, pull the forearm forward, and then hit your slide lock release button. It should move just a very little bit.

Been a long time, but I believe it works better that way.

Hauxfan!
 

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Discussion Starter #11
When you want to run the action, pull the forearm forward, and then hit your slide lock release button. It should move just a very little bit.

Been a long time, but I believe it works better that way.

Hauxfan!
You are correct. In this case however, the action bar slide lock hook was not able to engage the trigger knob regardless of the forearm position. After smoothing it up just a hair, it all works as it should now.

Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Glad you got it working.
The best text I've found so far is titled: Sequence of Take-Down and Assembly Operations. Mod. 12. I got on ebay.
Printed by Olin/Winchester it is about as informative as I've found.
Advice noted. Ordered one off Ebay today.

I was really very careful with my modifications. I will have the gunsmith at the next big shoot give it a once-over also.
 
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