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Figure 8 and CB Wad questions

2968 Views 17 Replies 8 Participants Last post by  Trap206
Hey everyone

I have a few questions about Rem Fig-8 wads, as well as their CB counterparts - I've researched a bit, but still haven't found all of the answers. (Feel free to correct any of my assertions, I'm still trying to absorb all of this):

First, I was looking at a load recipe for Fiocchi hulls and RamShot competition using Cheddite primers, and a Rem Fig-8 wad. 1 1/8 loads. [based on the load, and FPS, and also what I could source.] After some research, I now know that the Rem Fig-8 is for tapered hulls, and obviously the Fiocchi's are straight walled. So it's a safe load according to Ramshot's load data, but probably not ideal, and there's that possibility of powder migration.

Tonight, I saw that ClayBusters makes several versions of a Figure 8. One of them, the Red-8 (CB3118-12AR), is designed for straight walled hulls. Looking at the CB Wad chart, it appears they make three different figure 8 versions - one that compares to the Rem Fig-8, one to the Rem Fig-8-Red, and one to the Rem Fig8-White. Looks like both the plain CB Fig 8 and the White are for tapered hulls. I am assuming this was also the case with the Rems?

1. According to the CB chart, the CB3118-12AR is a Figure 8 Red equivalent - What's the difference between a Figure 8 and a Figure 8 red - was it simply that the red was designed for a straight hull?

2. I'll validate this with RamShot and or CB, but would it be safe to swap in a CB Red-8 meant for a straight hull on a Fiocchi load recipe that called for a Rem Fig-8 that is for a tapered hull? Or would this be too much of a risk altering pressure characteristics?

3. On several of the CB wads on their chart, it shows they are comparable to "straight wall" - what does that mean, exactly? Obviously for a straight hull, but not a specific wad interchange?

Here's a table I was looking at for a quick reference:


(to make this more confusing, when I initially looked at a chart on the Ballistic Products site, it listed the CB3118-12-AR as comparable to an 12C1, which made no sense looking at them visually)

thanks much in advance,
Michael
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Have you tried the load as specified? Does it stack up OK and yield a flat crimp? If you want to see how the powder cup fits near the bottom and are willing to sacrifice one hull, you can cut a hull so only about 3/4" is remaining and check the fit of the powder cup. If its loose and sloppy , it may not be the one you want to use. I have Cheddite hulls and CB81118-12 wads and while I didn't cut the tube down, the fit seems OK. So its going to boil down to the stack up and how it crimps. I can tell you that CB6118's and Fiocchi wads (look on Grafs) will both give you a nice stack up. I have a bunch of Comp but have not used any yet. Still burning through mu supply of WST but Comp looks about 17.5fr for 1150fps while WST is 19. Not sure how the densities compare so without trying, I can be sure how they will stack up. I can also tell you that I see numerous loads with Comp in "straight" hulls that call out a wad supposedly for tapered hulls. You just need to try them.
 

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Have you tried the load as specified? Does it stack up OK and yield a flat crimp? If you want to see how the powder cup fits near the bottom and are willing to sacrifice one hull, you can cut a hull so only about 3/4" is remaining and check the fit of the powder cup. If its loose and sloppy , it may not be the one you want to use. I have Cheddite hulls and CB81118-12 wads and while I didn't cut the tube down, the fit seems OK. So its going to boil down to the stack up and how it crimps. I can tell you that CB6118's and Fiocchi wads (look on Grafs) will both give you a nice stack up. I have a bunch of Comp but have not used any yet. Still burning through mu supply of WST but Comp looks about 17.5fr for 1150fps while WST is 19. Not sure how the densities compare so without trying, I can be sure how they will stack up. I can also tell you that I see numerous loads with Comp in "straight" hulls that call out a wad supposedly for tapered hulls. You just need to try them.
Just because there are published loads for tapered case wads in straight wall cases doesn't mean it's should be considered advisable.

Big girls can buy stretchy pants. Doesn't mean it's advisable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Have you tried the load as specified? Does it stack up OK and yield a flat crimp? If you want to see how the powder cup fits near the bottom and are willing to sacrifice one hull, you can cut a hull so only about 3/4" is remaining and check the fit of the powder cup. If its loose and sloppy , it may not be the one you want to use. I have Cheddite hulls and CB81118-12 wads and while I didn't cut the tube down, the fit seems OK. So its going to boil down to the stack up and how it crimps. I can tell you that CB6118's and Fiocchi wads (look on Grafs) will both give you a nice stack up. I have a bunch of Comp but have not used any yet. Still burning through mu supply of WST but Comp looks about 17.5fr for 1150fps while WST is 19. Not sure how the densities compare so without trying, I can be sure how they will stack up. I can also tell you that I see numerous loads with Comp in "straight" hulls that call out a wad supposedly for tapered hulls. You just need to try them.
I haven't tried any of them yet - I've just been looking at the load data and the components I've been able to source. I also noticed the CB6112s, but Ramshot doesn't have any load data for those (or what they are replacing) - at least from what I can see. You're right that a lot of the Comp loads look to use tapered hulls, which I found a little odd. But I am curious if the straight hull CB Red-8 wad is a SAFE replacement for the tapered Fig-8. I"m not worrying about the stack height yet - I'm more concerned if it's safe to even attempt it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Just because there are published loads for tapered case wads in straight wall cases doesn't mean it's should be considered advisable.

Big girls can buy stretchy pants. Doesn't mean it's advisable.
If what I've read is correct, not advisable doesn't necessarily mean unsafe. It just may be it's not an optimized load. My primary question is whether the CB Red 8 for straight hulls is a SAFE substitute for the tapered hull wad.
 

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If Ram Shot Competition is a fine grain powder; do not use tapered wads in a straight wall hull. This is even if there is a tested load. The possibility of the powder migrating could be a problem, unless you load them up and shoot them right away. The problem arises if the shell are transported a lot, giving the powder more a chance of migrating.

When in doubt have the load tested.

Jason
 

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If you will look at CB website you will see that the AR wad was designed to take place of the Federal C1 wad.
The AR is for Paper straight wall hulls.

The CB6118 series was designed primarily for the Federal Gold Metal hulls.
Either one will work in a straight wall Hull. Which ever one that will get you the best stack height is your bet alternative.

Now with this being said the AR wad is a bit taller then the CB6118.

You will also find that both of these wads diameter is the same
From .725-.728. Which is exactly what one needs for straight wall hulls.
Hope this helps
 

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I haven't tried any of them yet - I've just been looking at the load data and the components I've been able to source. I also noticed the CB6112s, but Ramshot doesn't have any load data for those (or what they are replacing) - at least from what I can see. You're right that a lot of the Comp loads look to use tapered hulls, which I found a little odd. But I am curious if the straight hull CB Red-8 wad is a SAFE replacement for the tapered Fig-8. I"m not worrying about the stack height yet - I'm more concerned if it's safe to even attempt it.
Most of the powder companies do you list the CB6118 or CB6110. They are a taller wad with a compliant mid-section so they compress down when you do the crimp. They are popular for reloading hulls like the recent crop of Topgun that have a really low basewad so need extra wad height to get a good crimp. I took a TG round apart to see what wad was used at the factory. It was a two-piece wad with the shot cup sitting on the stem. The stem was crushed down as it "self-adjusted" during the crimp. I learned a lot while loading Cheddite hulls that were clear. You could see much better what was going on. You might look for my thread in the other forum. There is a lot of discussion and photos there as I was trying to figure out what to use. CB site has a few loads for the 61xx series not for many different powders. I will be shooting a bunch of 6118's this morning in Topgun hulls with Fed primer and 19gr of WST. They worked great on Wednesday night.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks everyone, I have a follow up.

Everything I’ve read says that you need to follow the load data exactly. But what I’ve read above is that the stack height is important with regards to the wad. Are the wad designs somewhat interchangeable - for instance, can you interchange any figure 8 design as long as the stack height is correct? I assumed that even though they are similar designs, the pressures could differ.

I’m just trying to sort out what will work safely as a first time load - between being new and not being able to source all the components to even try one load is frustrating. It’s compounded by the fact I can’t look at load data and instinctively know what’s a straight wall wad vs tapered because at least on the Ramshot chart, they list all kinds for the Fiocchi hulls.

ichael
 

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I'll probably get flamed for this but here it is................If you are going to load straight walled hulls.....use a straight walled wad! If using tapered hulls.....use a tapered wad! IMHO.......FWIW..........A cb 12s3 would probably suit your needs as well as any wad you have mentioned in your Fiocchi hulls. You can buy soooooooo many wads from Ballistic Products that will fill the bill in the Euro trash hulls that it staggers the mind. You also never stated how much powder you were going to stuff in whatever hull you decide on so that will play a large role in determining your stack height. Reloading is supposed to be fun and give us something to do when we can't be at the range..........Keep it simple and safe..........I wish you much success in your quest for your perfect load.............
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I'll probably get flamed for this but here it is................If you are going to load straight walled hulls.....use a straight walled wad! If using tapered hulls.....use a tapered wad! IMHO.......FWIW..........A cb 12s3 would probably suit your needs as well as any wad you have mentioned in your Fiocchi hulls. You can buy soooooooo many wads from Ballistic Products that will fill the bill in the Euro trash hulls that it staggers the mind. You also never stated how much powder you were going to stuff in whatever hull you decide on so that will play a large role in determining your stack height. Reloading is supposed to be fun and give us something to do when we can't be at the range..........Keep it simple and safe..........I wish you much success in your quest for your perfect load.............
You’re absolutely right about straight wads for straight hulls. As I mentioned above, I’m not yet well versed on what’s a straight wad vs tapered. I was going strictly off the loading data from RamShot. I figured that if it was on the list, then it was safe to try - but I’ve discovered that doesn’t mean it’s optimal.

I know there are a ton of wads out there from Ballistic and other places - but up to this point I’ve been trying to match those up to what’s on the load data and so far I’m not having a lot of luck. Which is why I’m wondering if the wads are somewhat more a easily substituted than the powder and primer

as for powder, I don’t have it in front of me but depending on the FPS, it was between 16.2 and I think 17.7

Michael
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Wads for straight walled cases have a larger diameter shot cup. Hold the 2 types face to face and see for yourself.

It's not rocket science, it's just reloading.

HM
Yeah - I get that. I’d just like to know definitively if it’s safe to interchange them.
 

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I’m not yet well versed on what’s a straight wad vs tapered.
Go to Claybuster.com and look at all the wads they have listed. Now click on the wad you want to use. They tell you which wads are for Strait Walled hulls Or for Tapered hulls. Most all of the Euro made hulls are Strait-walled. Federal hulls are Strait-walled too. STS's, and Gun Clubs are Tapered. Good Luck to Ya. Stay safe and always follow published data for your reloading. Oh Yeh, If you need to make any substitutions contact your powder company and see what their powder tech has to say first.

PS Now this is a great place to find out about stack heights. Just ask if anyone uses xxx powder, with a yyy wad, for a load you want to try!!! They can tell you if they have any problems getting everything to fit properly. As you can have too low of a height, as well as too high of a height!!! break em all Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Go to Claybuster.com and look at all the wads they have listed. Now click on the wad you want to use. They tell you which wads are for Strait Walled hulls Or for Tapered hulls. Most all of the Euro made hulls are Strait-walled. Federal hulls are Strait-walled too. STS's, and Gun Clubs are Tapered. Good Luck to Ya. Stay safe and always follow published data for your reloading. Oh Yeh, If you need to make any substitutions contact your powder company and see what their powder tech has to say first.

PS Now this is a great place to find out about stack heights. Just ask if anyone uses xxx powder, with a yyy wad, for a load you want to try!!! They can tell you if they have any problems getting everything to fit properly. As you can have too low of a height, as well as too high of a height!!! break em all Jeff

Thanks Jeff - I've started looking at the CB site as well as other places. What I'm finding, at least in the RamShot powder data, is they don't have a lot of CB wads listed. And, some of the DR wads they list don't appear to be available anymore. I'm going to put together a grid of all the wads on their list, research them, then I'll have a quick ref for future use. I was able to source some Green Dot as well, and they have some different options - but I need to contact them about a primer swap as they call for Fio and I have Cheddites on the way

As for stack height - I've been reading up on that as well - I'm sure I'll have a lot of questions once I can land on a recipe that I can actually find all the components for.

Michael
 

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at least in the RamShot powder data, is they don't have a lot of CB wads listed. And, some of the DR wads they list don't appear to be available anymore.
If you see a Ram-shot powder load that calls for a Win. brand AA wad, or a Rem fig. 8 brand wad? Its safe to use the CB wad that is a direct replacement for that wad. Same goes for a DR made wad. Its safe to use there direct replacement for the same factory wad called for in their data. Now you know why most everyone who reloads, uses a American made hull, and American made components to reload it. Once they find a powder and load they like!!! They will stick with it for decades. Unless their is a real good reason to change!!! Changing powders, means changing powder bushings, and sometimes wads too. It gets to confusing to change things up all the time. Find a load and stick with it. Good Luck to Ya. break em all Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
If you see a Ram-shot powder load that calls for a Win. brand AA wad, or a Rem fig. 8 brand wad? Its safe to use the CB wad that is a direct replacement for that wad. Same goes for a DR made wad. Its safe to use there direct replacement for the same factory wad called for in their data. Now you know why most everyone who reloads, uses a American made hull, and American made components to reload it. Once they find a powder and load they like!!! They will stick with it for decades. Unless their is a real good reason to change!!! Changing powders, means changing powder bushings, and sometimes wads too. It gets to confusing to change things up all the time. Find a load and stick with it. Good Luck to Ya. break em all Jeff
Thanks Jeff - I've been looking in to a lot of the CB and DR substitutions. Looks like my club carries a lot of the CB variants. Part of the issue is I'm all new to this, I'm just now making inroads to the local community of re loaders, and so far it's been impossible to find the American hulls. I haven't been able to find any factory except Fiocchi and Rios - so I went with the Fiocchis as a starting point since I have a bunch of once fired. Had I been able to find STS, I would have gone that route for sure. I know everyone is having sourcing issues - and I'm trying to do as much research as I can.

Michael
 
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