Trapshooters Forum banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
963 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I have been thinking about purchasing a pigeon grade Model 12 and I know there are Fake ones out there and my question to the EXPERTS is what to look for. I am sure there are people out there that are trying to get big money for the Fake Pigeon Grade and I don’t want to fall into that category.

I am looking to hear from anyone that knows Model 12. I am no expert with these guns. Pics would help if anyone would like to share.


Thanks
JSkolar1
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,903 Posts
I have been thinking about purchasing a pigeon grade Model 12 and I know there are Fake ones out there and my question to the EXPERTS is what to look for. I am sure there are people out there that are trying to get big money for the Fake Pigeon Grade and I don’t want to fall into that category.

I am looking to hear from anyone that knows Model 12. I am no expert with these guns. Pics would help if anyone would like to share.


Thanks
JSkolar1
Just hope you know the difference in between a Pigeon and a duck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
239 Posts
in the early 1970s you could buy the collar "thingy" with the pigeon on it from winchester. the bolt and magazine follower would have to be jeweled and you would need wood with pigeon checkering pattern. i knew a guy who did it. but, it did not have proper wood. he sold the gun at a premium price. he had a guilty concience and confessed to it being a fake. the gun was so clean with beautiful wood that the buyer said that he still wanted it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
375 Posts
Things I would look for are the sheen of the finish and the wood. Winchester was pretty selective in picking the wood and picked blanks with figure but with good straight grain though the pistol grip area. If a stock has a lot of figure and/or cross grain up into the pistol grip or a figure that is not a crotch pattern I lean towards thinking it is not original. If a stock seems to have too much figure I would be careful. I have one stock from the 50's and it has a nice sheen like 70 year old varnish ought to look.

If I wanted original I would have Pauline evaluate it.

I personally have neither the money or the inclination towards buying one of these. I do sometimes shoot a built up trap model with Win trap wood and a Simmons rib. But it is choked too tight and has a little to high a POI for me.

Good luck with your search and purchase. It does sound like a fun project.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
795 Posts
Their is enough Model 12 experts on TS if you obtain pictures will be able to advise you if it "real" or "faked". So many fake model 12 Pigeons were sold in the 70's, 80's and 90's by a few folks known to peddle these guns. Most Model 12 guys know who I'm talking about and these guns do surface again and seen them offered on the Intranet. While the stock/forearm checkering is unique, points on pistol grip panels, bottom of forearm checkering, Jewelling on bolt and shell carrier what's unique inside A REAL Pigeon grade is the polishing of the internal "guts". Winchester only had done these on this "Grade" while some fakes don't exhibit this feature. If you find a Model 12 Pigeon ask for pictures if the trigger group and underside if bolt as I'll tell you if right or not.

Personally, you have to fussy with some of the national dealers who have be known to peddle these pedigree model 12's.

As far as Barrel Extensions, they surfaced latter 70's, mostly 80's and 90's, no serial # while some had Pigeon's engraved on the bottom. These were called "lunch box" parts leaving the factory, as well as proof stamps too. I heard during the years of collecting model 12 some folks even had the serial # stamps too.

Personally, other than checkering, jeweling, famous Pigeon the only plus to a Pigeon is the "guts" inside of the receiver so my suggestion would be a standard grade Model 12 "target" gun, if for Trap, the 2 pin rib is a 'work of art", old timers call it "rough back" for pattern on top of the receiver. You can't fake a 2 Pin rib model 12.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,729 Posts
JSkolar I'd strongly suggest you contact Devon Harris who owns a company specializing in M12's called Seven Sections American Nostalgia. His number is 574-722-4870. He's an absolute authority on M12's and is always willing to talk and answer questions. He may even have one for sale. PM me if you need more info.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
535 Posts
Look carefully with a magnifying glass at the pigeon. Pigeon grades had a rolled pigeon on the tube. I personally have seen one where the pigeon was very nicely engraved in.
The pigeons were engraved. Different factory engravers Pigeons look a little different but still a Pigeon.The difference in Pigeon grade guns is the polishing inside the receiver along with the Pigeon on the receiver extension. Look inside, but keep in mind if someone at Winchester could polish certain parts so can a counterfeiter. There was also a difference it the checkering pattern but remember there are people that can duplicate the Pigeon grade checkering pattern. Ask Pauline, I know she engraved Pigeons in house and has engraved them as a free lance engraver.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,977 Posts
The pigeons were engraved. Different factory engravers Pigeons look a little different but still a Pigeon.The difference in Pigeon grade guns is the polishing inside the receiver along with the Pigeon on the receiver extension. Look inside, but keep in mind if someone at Winchester could polish certain parts so can a counterfeiter. There was also a difference it the checkering pattern but remember there are people that can duplicate the Pigeon grade checkering pattern. Ask Pauline, I know she engraved Pigeons in house and has engraved them as a free lance engraver.
I have seen dozens of pigeon grade mod 12’s, all were rolled in with a die.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,977 Posts
When I say the pigeons are rolled in I am speaking of the plain pigeon grade, higher engraved grades I am sure the pigeon was chased in not rolled.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
535 Posts
When I say the pigeons are rolled in I am speaking of the plain pigeon grade, higher engraved grades I am sure the pigeon was chased in not rolled.
I would not say that all pigeon grades were engraved or rolled. I do not know. I do know that the ones I own and have seen and believe to the best of my ability are/were original factory pigeon grades. They were engraved as can/could see little chisel marks in the engraving. One of the near the end of model 12's Jaqua's ordered a sizable number of pigeon grades that were sent to Italy for the receivers to be engraved and then finished in New Haven. I understand that Pauline engraved the pigeons on the receiver extension. My thinking is if Winchester had a device that rolled the pigeons on why would they have tied her up on engraving pigeons. This would have been more costly and time consuming for them to finish these guns. It would be nice to know more of what happened at Winchester through the long run they had.
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top