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This weekend I attended a Phil Kiner shooting clinic and I discovered why my shooting has been deteriorating for at least a couple of years. My left eye tries to take over from my shooting eye and I was shooting way to the left of the target. Phil took vidios of all the shooters and showed us where we were shooting, there were nine of us there and seven had that problem. He took a lazer and put it in the end of my gun and had me point it at a spot on the wall with my right eye then had me do the same with my left eye and it was in the same position that my shot pattern was when I missed. I had no awareness of this and still find it hard to believe. At least now I'm aware of it and can work on my problem. It's a very worthwhile clinic I highly recomend it.

warren
 

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Did Mr. Kiner offer any solutions to this Crossfiring problem? If not, how exactly do you plan to "work on it"?

Please post when he has come up with a solution to this problem shared by a majority of his class.


Lyle
 

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I'm a two eyed person and a 'farm dog' type who chews his collar off as soon as you put it on. Obscuring the offending eye made me want to take my glasses off. Get that thing out of here.

My theory is my off is is trying to help out because the bbl is in the way. The vision system doesn't have time to adjust when the target clears the bbl. Maybe there's an age factor here.

I'm going back to a Holosight mounted high enough over the bbl so as to allow for a clear view all the way down to the top of the trap house. Dominant eye is working from the start. Non-dominant eye can play second fiddle.

I'm back in the saddle.

Yippey Kai Yeah.
 

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There is no real solution apparently. Several tried putting tape on their glasses with very little if any improvement, Phil said that if he could come up with a good solution he would be an instant millionare. I tried shooting with one eye closed and it was disasterious as I would loose the target completley. I did achieve some success by concentrating on my right eye as I called the target, but this problem did not happen overnite and it's going to take a lot of work to fix. At least now I know the problem and can work on it. I understand there are some products you can install on your gun to help but they are not curealls ether.

warren
 

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I have a solution, but nobody wants to change their guns. Struggle on, my friends, until you're willing to give up your attachements to convention.
 

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Your sight plane needs to be well enough above your barrel to allow your dominant eye to work ALL the time. Otherwise your non-dominant eye will try to help you out and switching back to the dominant eye as the target becomes available (to that eye) will be a chore as you age in years or get tired throughout a long shooting day. After a while, the pattern will be engrained and you'll struggle all the time. I know this from first hand experience.

Notice I say 'sight plane' and not sight line. I don't want to approach a rifle shooting type of discussion because that's not the right way to go either. It's a plane of vision sweeping left and right above your gun. You can get this by lowering your hold, but since I'm getting old, that means more movement to get to the target. I tried holding lower all last year and that'll work, but I prefer to hold even, look low and have my dominant eye do the work from setup to target break.

How do you do this in terms of gun setup? There are surely lots of ways to do this, some not even thought of yet. My solution is here. I feel strongly enough about this after my first day back (yesterday) to cancel my stock work on my Mach One and redo the stock on this.





If you don't want to change your gun, lower your hold so your main eye can see unobstructed all the time. If you're engrained in an eye switching pattern, good luck. It's going to take a while to get back on track.
 

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Your sight plane needs to be well enough above your barrel to allow your dominant eye to work ALL the time. Otherwise your non-dominant eye will try to help you out and switching back to the dominant eye as the target becomes available (to that eye) will be a chore as you age in years or get tired throughout a long shooting day. After a while, the pattern will be engrained and you'll struggle all the time. I know this from first hand experience.

Notice I say 'sight plane' and not sight line. I don't want to approach a rifle shooting type of discussion because that's not the right way to go either. It's a plane of vision sweeping left and right above your gun. You can get this by lowering your hold, but since I'm getting old, that means more movement to get to the target. I tried holding lower all last year and that'll work, but I prefer to hold even, look low and have my dominant eye do the work from setup to target break.

How do you do this in terms of gun setup? There are surely lots of ways to do this, some not even thought of yet. My solution is here. I feel strongly enough about this after my first day back (yesterday) to cancel my stock work on my Mach One and redo the stock on this.





If you don't want to change your gun, lower your hold so your main eye can see unobstructed all the time. If you're engrained in an eye switching pattern, good luck. It's going to take a while to get back on track.
 

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I also have a cross fire problem which I discovered with the Kiner DVD, I'm right eye dominant. What's interesting is that when I mount the gun or when I blink my left eye I see the sights correctly on my right eye but as soon as I move my eye to track a bird my left eye pops in and takes over and of course I'm looking down the side of the barrel.
I told this story to my eye doctor who has a number of Olympic pistol clients and is a trap and skeet shooter himself and he said at my age there is little I can do to fix the problem. He did adjust my PX so as to weaken the left eye however.
I went out with some scotch tape as Kiner suggested and it worked quite well so this will have to be my approach. For skeet the downside is in picking up birds coming from the high house since my left eye is blocked. I rotated my stance to the left some and have to make a quicker move but I can break them.

Joe
 

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I also have a cross fire problem which I discovered with the Kiner DVD, I'm right eye dominant. What's interesting is that when I mount the gun or when I blink my left eye I see the sights correctly on my right eye but as soon as I move my eye to track a bird my left eye pops in and takes over and of course I'm looking down the side of the barrel.
I told this story to my eye doctor who has a number of Olympic pistol clients and is a trap and skeet shooter himself and he said at my age there is little I can do to fix the problem. He did adjust my PX so as to weaken the left eye however.
I went out with some scotch tape as Kiner suggested and it worked quite well so this will have to be my approach. For skeet the downside is in picking up birds coming from the high house since my left eye is blocked. I rotated my stance to the left some and have to make a quicker move but I can break them.

Joe
 

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I've tried the tape, updated prescription and the stance adjustment. I'm going back to my Holosight.
 

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I've tried the tape, updated prescription and the stance adjustment. I'm going back to my Holosight.
 

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Nice job Joe. Not for me, but I am glad it works for you. I experienced exactly what Warren did right down to the knat's pa-toot. And I can tell you that it is not fun at the time or later as you try and work thru it. But then I ran into Motowheel guy on TS and he gave me some tips that got me started. His 2 tips were:

1) get away form the parallel gun and get the front bead on the front lip of the house. That helps your bbl eye to stay dominant and your first move is to the target.

2) He said practice 6-700 targets a week. That helped a lot as I quit worrying about the couple hundred I saw on a weekend. In this case the idea was to shoot better handicap and that became my sole practice

Then I took it further with these steps (Still trying to stay a two-eyed shooter)

1) Like Joe Kuhn I realized that the back of the receiver obstructed my dominant eye. So, I got my eye up away from the receiver by sighting off the front tip of the bbl. By putting a couple of beads of space in between the beads. Yes, that elevates me to 100% high gun, but that part is natural for a trap shooter.

2) But in fact I found out that the basic instruction that virtually all shooters give another that is struggling has become a tenet to trapshooting lexicon and yet may be the prime reason you crossfire... And that was you are trying to see the target too much. Just put the gun out there and call for the bird and shoot it when you see it beyond and above your bbl. Essentially that is what Harlan Campbell suggests, but perhaps in different words.

And "thank you for looking"

DON'T TRY SO DAMN HARD! And shoot more of what you want to be good at.
 

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Nice job Joe. Not for me, but I am glad it works for you. I experienced exactly what Warren did right down to the knat's pa-toot. And I can tell you that it is not fun at the time or later as you try and work thru it. But then I ran into Motowheel guy on TS and he gave me some tips that got me started. His 2 tips were:

1) get away form the parallel gun and get the front bead on the front lip of the house. That helps your bbl eye to stay dominant and your first move is to the target.

2) He said practice 6-700 targets a week. That helped a lot as I quit worrying about the couple hundred I saw on a weekend. In this case the idea was to shoot better handicap and that became my sole practice

Then I took it further with these steps (Still trying to stay a two-eyed shooter)

1) Like Joe Kuhn I realized that the back of the receiver obstructed my dominant eye. So, I got my eye up away from the receiver by sighting off the front tip of the bbl. By putting a couple of beads of space in between the beads. Yes, that elevates me to 100% high gun, but that part is natural for a trap shooter.

2) But in fact I found out that the basic instruction that virtually all shooters give another that is struggling has become a tenet to trapshooting lexicon and yet may be the prime reason you crossfire... And that was you are trying to see the target too much. Just put the gun out there and call for the bird and shoot it when you see it beyond and above your bbl. Essentially that is what Harlan Campbell suggests, but perhaps in different words.

And "thank you for looking"

DON'T TRY SO DAMN HARD! And shoot more of what you want to be good at.
 
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