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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There seems to be a misunderstanding of the NO Target rule versus the Failure to Fire rule. Several times this year we have had a situation where the second target was broken out of the house. They shot the first target and broke it, so they were claiming that the first target was established as DEAD (or lost if they missed it unbroken bird). On Failure to Fire rules that is TRUE but where either bird is broken out of the house it is supposed to be ruled NO Target and the pair must be shot (no establishment on the first bird). Numerous people told me that the rule was changed a few years ago but I think they are confusing No target and failure to fire (which was changed).

Below is on page 31 of the current rule book. Tell me if I am misunderstanding this.

11. In addition, in DOUBLES EVENTS, the referee/scorer shall rule “NO TARGET” and allow another pair of targets in the following instances ONLY: a. When only one target is thrown. b. When more than two targets are thrown. c. When both targets are broken by one shot. d. When one or both targets are thrown broken even though the contestant fires at one or both targets. e. When one or both targets are not within the prescribed angle or height limits and the contestant does not fire at either target. f. If the contestant fires at an illegal first target and the second target is legal, he/she must also fire at the second target, and if he/she fails to do so, the legal second target shall be ruled, “LOST.” After a contestant has fired at either a legal or illegal first target, he/she is not required to fire at an Illegal second target, but if he/she does fire, the result must be scored.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I guess the exception would be if the 2nd target was illegal (not broken) then any target shot at would be scored (established)..
 

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I guess the exception would be if the 2nd target was illegal (not broken) then any target shot at would be scored (established)..
Good question. To me, it's not totally clear. Send an email to the guy who writes the "House Rules" in the Trap & Field magazine. He's pretty good about answering promptly.
 
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Good question. To me, it's not totally clear. Send an email to the guy who writes the "House Rules" in the Trap & Field magazine. He's pretty good about answering promptly.
Yes, he is. And he's always looking for topics.
 

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That came up at the Grand during an event that I was watching. The shooter insisted that because he broke the first target, it was established and the squad started to argue about it. I do not like to be a butinski, but I am a delegate, so I explained the rule to both the shooter and the scorer - no target. He ended up breaking both targets when reshot. Frostyman is correct about an illegal second target. The first target is established as either broken or lost, and if the second target is illegal and not shot at, that is a do over for the second target only. It's all in the rule book.
JEB
 

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It's "NO TARGET". Refer to "d." "When one or both targets are thrown broken even though the contestant fires at one or both targets. "
 

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I had this exact rule come in to play for me at Middletown yesterday. It was handled correctly. I knew the rule, but I'm not sure the scorekeeper did. I had to explain to a scorekeeper there previously in the week that my 3rd failure to fire needed to be scored as a lost target. So who knows if the scorekeeper knew this rule. It's a bit obscure, after all.
 

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11. In addition, in DOUBLES EVENTS, the referee/scorer shall rule “NO TARGET” and allow another pair of targets in the following instances ONLY: a. When only one target is thrown. b. When more than two targets are thrown. c. When both targets are broken by one shot. d. When one or both targets are thrown broken even though the contestant fires at one or both targets. e. When one or both targets are not within the prescribed angle or height limits and the contestant does not fire at either target. f. If the contestant fires at an illegal first target and the second target is legal, he/she must also fire at the second target, and if he/she fails to do so, the legal second target shall be ruled, “LOST.” After a contestant has fired at either a legal or illegal first target, he/she is not required to fire at an Illegal second target, but if he/she does fire, the result must be scored. pg. 31 E Par. 11 Sometimes this gets confused with the "failure to fire" rules--------------------------------------------------2. DOUBLES FAILURE TO FIRE – A contestant shall be allowed 2 failures to fire for any reason (other than stated in Paragraph C.,2.) during each doubles sub-event per the following: FIRST AND SECOND DOUBLES FAILURE TO FIRE If the failure is on the FIRST SHOT and the shooter DOES NOT SHOOT at the second target – nothing is established for either target, SHOOT THE PAIR OVER. If the failure is on the FIRST SHOT and the shooter FIRES AT the second target – Second target is" established as shot "– SHOOT THE PAIR OVER TO ESTABLISH THE FIRST TARGET ONLY. If the failure is on the SECOND TARGET –" first target is established as shot "– SHOOT THE PAIR OVER TO ESTABLISH SECOND TARGET ONLY (See exception in VII.,E,11.,f.). ALL ADDITIONAL (3 OR MORE) DOUBLES FAILURES TO FIRE If the failure is on the FIRST SHOT and the SECOND TARGET IS SHOT – first target is LOST, second target is scored as shot. If the failure is on the FIRST SHOT and the SECOND TARGET IS NOT SHOT – first target is LOST, pair is shot over to establish second target only. If the failure is on the SECOND SHOT and the FIRST TARGET IS SHOT – first target is scored as shot, second target is LOST. Pg. 29 D Par. 2 . As listed above A first or second target can only be established under the "failure to fire rules" If either target of a pair is broken coming out of the house the pair must be shot over.
 

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How do I shoot at the second target only when the first target has been already scored? LOL.

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How do I shoot at the second target only when the first target has been already scored? LOL.

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It will be the second one you shoot at when you reshoot the pair.

Which, to be clear on which you are shooting second you might do the scorer a favor and break the first one. LOL
 

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Glad this is being discussed.

So if both birds come out whole and I break the first and then see the second one is illegal, i can refuse it and reshoot the pair, with the first target already scored?


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It will be the second one you shoot at when you reshoot the pair.

Which, to be clear on which you are shooting second you might do the scorer a favor and break the first one. LOL
can I have a failure to fire on the first reshoot target that is already declared dead and still break the second target? LOL now escalated to ROFL
 

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can I have a failure to fire on the first reshoot target that is already declared dead and still break the second target? LOL now escalated to ROFL
If the second target is already been established then I don't think it would change anything.
But, with the amount of failures to fire happening you might have your browning/beretta looked at when you get off the line.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I sent an email to David Kaiser who writes the House Rules section of Trap and Field. He indicated that even on an illegal second target that the first target is not established. It is ONLY established on a Failure to Fire situation. Every other situation you have to shoot the pair over in order to score both targets.


David Kaiser ([email protected])To:you + 1 more Details

First let me apologize for not getting back to you sooner things have been a bit hectic of late.

The simple way to think about this is that under ATA rules there is no "established" target under any circumstances other than under the "Failure to Fire" (FTF) rules specific to doubles.

A shooter is never required to shoot at an illegal second target regardless of what he or she did on the first target. If shooter does shoot at an illegal whole second target, then the results are scored as shot. If the shooter withholds fire on an illegal second target, then the pair is shot over with nothing established.

"Established" targets only happen under the rules in the case of a legitimate FTF. Either target may be so established although I suspect that an established second target after an FTF on the first target is a pretty rare occasion.

In shooting a pair over with an established target keep in mind that a target may be established as Dead or Lost. In any case the shooter is required to engage both targets of the "do over" pair.

I hope this helps, thank you for your question.

Dave Kaiser
 
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