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BTW I am not the only person in this game who has seen shotguns pattern better with different shot sizes. If no one ever believed it they would on;y make one shot size and I guess "everybody" would be happy.
That's the reason different shot sizes are produced and used?

If you have a mixed load of 7.5s and 8s do you get partial patchiness? Is the patchiness spread evenly around the pattern or would it be more patchy on bottom where the lighter 8s are and the un-patchiness would be on the top of the pattern?
 

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Check that thread I posted from 2013. Neil tested the spin rate of Pat and GMV Star Trap machines. They were both 2000 rpm.
All I know is what this shooter/trap rep./target installer told me. He said they were slow compared to the LaPorte machines. Which is what the skeet shooters wanted at the FCGC. LaPorte also came out this year with 3 up-grades for all the machines in San Antonio this year. They are a Higher back plate, better/more rubber, Better bottom plate in some way? as well. All 3 were designed to throw better and more consistent flying targets.

As far as spin goes. I was shooting skeet one windy day. I was shooting my singles shots on station 6. I called, and the high house just stopped all forward movement where I break it. So I held my shot and watched the target. It slowly came toward me in a slow arc, since the wind got it just right. I was just getting back into shooting again. So I made the mistake of trying to grab the target as it was about to hit my knee's. Burned my fingers in a millisecond from the rotation. Lucky for me, the target spun out of my hand, before I could even let go. So that saved me from a serious burn. I expect all machines spin the targets pretty fast, but it must be a serious factor if all the top Skeet Shooters boycotted the 3rd biggest skeet shoot in the world, for 2 years in a row!!!!!!! The FCGC, now has LaPorte Skeet machines now, just like their World Shoot. Break em all Jeff
 

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You are all missing the point of a full choke.
if you do everything else right, every time, the number of extra targets you gain with a full is very small.
The point Leo always tried to make was you have to train yourself to do everything right, every time. That’s what a full choke does. It helps you to become a better “pointer”. You can’t depend on sloppy luck. The best shooters are those who do the most things right, for the biggest number of times.
Very well said - Leo is smiling
 

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That's the reason different shot sizes are produced and used?

If you have a mixed load of 7.5s and 8s do you get partial patchiness? Is the patchiness spread evenly around the pattern or would it be more patchy on bottom where the lighter 8s are and the un-patchiness would be on the top of the pattern?
Don't understand any of that but I guess my response is I always thought the mixed shot stuff ( they called them Duplex loads I think )was just a gimmick to sell something .
 

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Get the popcorn......
I have been playing with chokes. That is unusual for me. My long time shooting buds know that I rarely if ever change anything on my gun. BUT just for giggles, I screwed a .30 out and put a .20 in and shot practice from my assigned 26 yard line.I shoot 7.5's at about 1225 for handicap. Breaks, when I pointed the gun in the right direction, were just as strong, and MY AVERAGES WENT UP!
I have long held that most shooters tend to "over choke". We hold to tradition in hunting and shooting. What ever grand pa said hangs on----no matter what. I feel that our belief in full chokes constrictions came from a time of limited powder choices, (probably) inferior shot quality, paper hulls, and LOUSY (by our standards) wad and shot cup selections. Tight chokes made sense then....But now with our better engineered and machined guns and more efficient ammo, I'm not so sure.
We see sporting shooters demolish targets 60 and even 80 yards! (Wish I could do that!). And If you believe Mr Winston's findings, ultra tight chokes DO NOT give clear evidence that breaks with tight chokes indicate where the gun is actually shooting, is there a need for ultra tight chokes even from the 27?
For sure I would rather have 100 chips than 90 "ink balls" and I do believe that anything a #8 will do, a #7.5 will do better!
I also believe that if you really believe in something, it does work for you. So, if you just have to have a choke that "let's them out one at a time" go for it! I'm just not sure the proof is there.
Now....Let'er rip!
My Best
Jim
Speaking of full chokes. Several years ago when I was much younger and I lived in Kansas I shot on the same 27yd squad with N E McCorkle. Many of you knew or heard of N E. He was a carbide tough shooter and a very unique man. We were waiting to go to the line to shoot the handicap. He was shooting at that time a build up M12. I ask him how much choke constriction he had in his gun. He handed it to me and I pulled a dime out of my pocket to do the dime test expecting it to not go in. Well it went in with ease. I then ask him who did his choke work and he pulled out of his pocket 3 dimes and stuck them in the muzzle looked at me with a smile and then walked to the firing line. I never got out of him just what custom work that was done on his barrel.This was the era when Sietz was the go to man. Who knows for sure, as he will never tell.
 

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All I know is what this shooter/trap rep./target installer told me. He said they were slow compared to the LaPorte machines. Which is what the skeet shooters wanted at the FCGC. LaPorte also came out tIhis year with 3 up-grades for all the machines in San Antonio this year. They are a Higher back plate, better/more rubber, Better bottom plate in some way? as well. All 3 were designed to throw better and more consistent flying targets.

As far as spin goes. I was shooting skeet one windy day. I was shooting my singles shots on station 6. I called, and the high house just stopped all forward movement where I break it. So I held my shot and watched the target. It slowly came toward me in a slow arc, since the wind got it just right. I was just getting back into shooting again. So I made the mistake of trying to grab the target as it was about to hit my knee's. Burned my fingers in a millisecond from the rotation. Lucky for me, the target spun out of my hand, before I could even let go. So that saved me from a serious burn. I expect all machines spin the targets pretty fast, but it must be a serious factor if all the top Skeet Shooters boycotted the 3rd biggest skeet shoot in the world, for 2 years in a row!!!!!!! The FCGC, now has LaPorte Skeet machines now, just like their World Shoot. Break em all Jeff
I cant speak for skeet targets , but doubles of twin lap laports are just plain $hit. A club I shot at used laport trap machines and pretty soon no one was wanting to shoot there. The club was predominantly skeet shooters and they insisted on laports.
 

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Just like anything in life. Its how the machine is set-up. Most clubs don't want to pay for the professional to come out and install the machine correctly from the ground up!!! If installed and set-up poorly, any machine will throw crappy targets. break em all Jeff
 

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Explain how it is misleading? And what kind of test would be better? And what kind of testing you've done to show this.

I told you the test - spinning pattern boards. They have been done. Look them up. Read what I wrote. I don't care what Neil said, physics says air drag slows rotation of ANY flying, spinning object. Take a physics class.

Screw your precious book - write your own. Mine was called a dissertation.
 

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And this from 2013. Read Post 7

Trap targets are launched at an average of 42 mph. Skeet targets are launched at 55 mph and international targets are launched at an average of 62 mph. According to the spin RPM theory both skeet and international targets should be easier to break than ATA trap target. I don’t think you will find very many people who believe this. The spin speed breakability myth has been perpetuated for years. If you look at target design specifications which include material composition, launch speed and stress distribution profiles, the spin theory falls apart. Is a rabbit target with very little rotational speed easier or harder to break than an ATA target? Or is it just a different design and spin speed has very little, if anything, to do with breakability?
 

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Screw your precious book - write your own. Mine was called a dissertation.
Since you would like to add weight to your credentials with your dissertation, could you add details about it?
I'm sure its a fascinating read and there are plenty of readers here that would love to have a look.
 

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Explain how it is misleading? And what kind of test would be better? And what kind of testing you've done to show this.

I told you the test - spinning pattern boards. They have been done. Look them up. Read what I wrote. I don't care what Neil said, physics says air drag slows rotation of ANY flying, spinning object. Take a physics class.

Screw your precious book - write your own. Mine was called a dissertation.
Fools like you are born everyday!
Have you happened to notice that not one darn person agrees with you ridiculous B.S.!
Why is that?
LOL,
MG
 

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Trap targets are launched at an average of 42 mph. Skeet targets are launched at 55 mph and international targets are launched at an average of 62 mph. According to the spin RPM theory both skeet and international targets should be easier to break than ATA trap target. I don’t think you will find very many people who believe this. The spin speed breakability myth has been perpetuated for years. If you look at target design specifications which include material composition, launch speed and stress distribution profiles, the spin theory falls apart. Is a rabbit target with very little rotational speed easier or harder to break than an ATA target? Or is it just a different design and spin speed has very little, if anything, to do with breakability?

Harder to hit and easier to break are two different things. Fast exit speed does not automatically mean fast spinning. I believe spin speed it related to target thrower arm length and speed to target thrower spring - which is adjustable. Centripetal force will cause holes to become cracks, and cracks to then fracture. Again - it's physics 101. Rabbit targets are just are susceptible to breaking because they are spinning as any other target. The fact their rotation slows more due to ground friction means one or two holes won't likely be enough - so you need to break it with a well placed shot and not rely on centripetal force for help - which is easier given they tend to be open face, right in front of you. I think the point you are making is that you can pick up targets every day with a couple of holes in them that did not break and assume spin wasn't a factor. Well it was, it just wasn't enough for that target. Better to hit with many pellets and remove all doubt.
 

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I’m a big fan of Leo Harrison and his theory on choke selection. Started the year with MOD for singles and handicap (short yardage). Scores stunk. After watching Leo’s dvd I switched to my EF .040 and my scores are back in the 90s again. My 870 Comp is choked somewhere between EF and turkey choke and ink balls targets from 25 yards and back. I think the big difference is using quality shells with hard shot JMO.
 

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Mine was called a dissertation.
A dissertation on what? It seems you’re hellbent on proving a point. What it is, nobody could say right now as you have provided zero concrete proof of anything. Rather, you have supplied lots of useless verbiage trying to make the appearance that you know all. In the end, it’s a comical front and nothing more.
 
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Just like anything in life. Its how the machine is set-up. Most clubs don't want to pay for the professional to come out and install the machine correctly from the ground up!!! If installed and set-up poorly, any machine will throw crappy targets. break em all Jeff
I should have seen that one coming and covered it in my post. The gentleman that sold them those traps was over there more than a few times trying to adjust the traps so both targets would come out at the same time and never could achieve that. Its pretty disconcerting when you're set up for the straight away and the second bird comes out first!!! As a side note I live less than one mile from the olin plant and used to shoot at their club quite a bit. They had laports as at that time winchester, if memory serves correct, was involved with laport at the time. They had continual trouble and had to have traps worked over a lot. If you're having good luck with them good on you, but don't judge them based on your experience at one club. I've shot over them more than I care to and know there are way better options.
 
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