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And this from 2013. Read Post 7

 
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Awww, all this high tech confusing talk about shot, bore, and choke sizes dictating success gives me a headache! Since broken targets (acceptable scores) mostly occur when I wear my special lucky socks, that's all I care about. Find what works for YOU...not these esoteric gimmicks...and have FUN. Life is short...
 

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What I know:
1. My highest scores, including a 100, have been with a full choke.

2. Handicaps is NOT boring to me. Right now, it’s my main drive to get another yard back. Got another one on Sunday. I look forward to being back with the 26 and 27 yarders.
 
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Full choke all the way! I'm actually considering getting an extra full "turkey" choke! As a casual trapshooter, I love the sight of my target just turn to smoke!
 

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This is all utter nonsense. Pattern testing is not nonsense. It shows what's really happening. You can go back and find posts by Neil supporting this. And if you read Dr. Jones' book, it also supports this.

The old shot string argument is also nonsense. Again, it is covered in Dr. Jones' book.

I guess it's easier for you to just say things with no basis in fact than it is to go out and actually prove they're true.

Read this. Especially the last two sentences of the Lowry article:

Checking for point-of-impact is a lot more important than pattern
testing.
 

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In an interview about this subject printed in shotgun sports Jim eyster says that the elimination of all imperfections inside the barrel is more important than tight chokes for consistently good patterns for 27 yd. Handicap. He further states that when he tunes a barrel for a customer he rarely puts more than .018 choke in the barrel unless more is requested by the shooter. He claims that eliminating the imperfections and modern shells creates a tight even pattern. I myself have 3 tm1s with chokes from .028 to .042 they will all break targets consistently from the 27 but I prefer the tightest one I feel it gives the best breaks and makes me concentrate more knowing there is.less margin for error.
 

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In one case My wife had a Full Choke barrel that loved 7-1/2s but not so much #8s The 7-1/2 patterns were a lot more even and the ones with 8s not so much.
That's interesting. Would you mind sharing your data from that testing? When anomolies in testing come up its valuable as a community to understand why.
You said several patterns, but its been shown on multiple occasions that at least 10 patterns (i think more like 15) need to be shot per setup, is that what you meant by several? 10?

Also, you said even patterns. But I think you might have mispoke or I've misunderstood. Since shotgun patterns are not even at any distance or choke/ammo combination did you mean to say that the 75% diameter was low/high? Or maybe another performance metric?
 

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I would buy the Cliff notes for this book and Tim's research. Do they still sell cliff notes?

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 

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That's interesting. Would you mind sharing your data from that testing? When anomolies in testing come up its valuable as a community to understand why.
You said several patterns, but its been shown on multiple occasions that at least 10 patterns (i think more like 15) need to be shot per setup, is that what you meant by several? 10?

Also, you said even patterns. But I think you might have mispoke or I've misunderstood. Since shotgun patterns are not even at any distance or choke/ammo combination did you mean to say that the 75% diameter was low/high? Or maybe another performance metric?
Well what I guess meant to say is the #8s from that barrel had more patchy spots . Some bunched up and some spots had 'small holes in places . The 7-1/2s were more evenly distributed and in that respect and less patchy. The barrel was a Winchester Full Choke on a Win. 1400. As far as how many patterns I tried, that was was almost 46 years ago and I really can't remember how many I did but ,back then I was a pattering fool and did it a lot more than I do now .
 

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Well what I guess meant to say is the #8s from that barrel had more patchy spots . Some bunched up and some spots had 'small holes in places . The 7-1/2s were more evenly distributed and in that respect and less patchy. The barrel was a Winchester Full Choke on a Win. 1400. As far as how many patterns I tried, that was was almost 46 years ago and I really can't remember how many I did but ,back then I was a pattering fool and did it a lot more than I do now .
All shotgun patterns have patchy spots then. Its the space between pellets. The reason that patchyiness doesn't have a value or metric to go with it, its a qualitative term that people like to throw around on gun club porches for the sake of sounding like they are knee deep in trap shooting slang.
I need to collect all of the trap slang for funsies.
But until I do I guess I'm off to add 6 feet of smoothness to my swing...or is smoothness measured in liters...i always mix it up.

But I think I get your drift.
Even though you were only able to find concrete evidence of the gun going bang, the upside is you got to be outside shooting with the wife enjoying the outdoors. That's always a win.
 

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Post number 20 where Neil, who did the test, says (emphasis added by me), "...the bird is going about two feet through the air for every revolution at the start, by the end of its flight it is traveling a lot slower but the spin has not changed..."
Common sense tells me that the spin will slow down to some degree. But I think we can all agree that the faster a target spins the easier it is to break.

I had a long conversation about this with shooters because for the last 2 years the Krieghoff Masters shoot in Savannah, Ga. was boycotted by almost all of the top 50 skeet shooters. The reason was the Forest City Gun Club had installed new skeet machines. These machines were known to throw targets with a reduced spin on them. I was not aware of this, nor did the real reason for the boycott for some time. Last year, FCGC replaced all the skeet machines to bring back these top 50 shooters. Of course Covid-19 postponed the shoot until the hottest time of year. So many shooters did not attend. But, I degress.
I talked to a rep. and installer of a major brand of clay target machines about this in depth. So I asked him point blank about who makes the fastest spin machines and the slowest. I hate to tell you guys, but Pat Traps have a very slow spin to them according to this installer. At least by today's standards. Now, I can't verify this. I expect this is the reason why the poster earlier on this thread, could not find out the rate of spin on there machines!!!

So now, maybe can debate this for the next few pages. Maybe?

I started clay target shooting almost 50 years ago. Trap shooters were debating what choke to use (on fixed choked guns), and what size shot, and speed of shells to use back then. Some things will never change I guess. As Spock from Star Trek would say, This is simply not logical!!! break em all Jeff
 

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I have been following this thread for awhile and always after all the years of being on this forum find it fascinating how choke tube threads progress.

It is really simple in one respect. Screw in choke tubes are a tool to give you a specific pattern density at a given distance. So obviously the further out you are taking the target the tighter the choke.

I agree 100 % with testing and also using common sense, lets take a look at a different type of testing like flagging a trap for distance in 5 yard increments out from the trap and taking video and notes of several squads and looking at the average distance each shooter is taking targets out of the house from the sixteen yard line and handicap. I started doing this every winter league season and working with shooters who are struggling with scores in handicap and they are often told that by someone (commonly the guy at the local sporting goods store) that having a IC to Mod. is all they need to get the job done.

I have done this and find that many shooters in reality are taking the target further out of the house than they think or are being told by their buddies.

So when the ave. older shooter is taking the target 20 yards out of the house from the sixteen yard line they are making a 35 to 36 yard shot. So when they pattern test that IC or Mod. choke at that distance the get a bit of a wake up call as many of them a very open.

Also the dynamic that gets over looked is vertical POI. Are they putting enough of their shot stream into the flight path of the target regardless of choke to CONSISTENTLY get the job done? If you are taking the target on the way up a higher POI is going to benefit you regardless of choke.

It goes against common sense to be making a longer shot and use a more open choke.....period.

SO when the subject comes to long yardage handicap and I look at two things that will help shooters the most.

1.Pattern test your chokes on the board-take pictures for ref. and take good notes.

2.Use the best patterning choke at the distance you take the target out of the house. Do not got by that exceptional case of a shooter or two that you know out of many you uses a more open choke and has success.

Spend time working with and talking to shooters who have earned the 27 yard line and are staying there to get information that works. The registered shooters who spend time putting a lot of rounds down range from long yardage handicap have for the most part spent a lot of time and money in the sport to get to where they are at. You will find the vast majority of them are using a tight to tighter choke from long yardage handicap.

As a side not it is always interesting that a choke thread comes up and even though the focus is on long yardage caps you see the discussion get shifted to singles/16 yard targets.
 

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You are all missing the point of a full choke.
if you do everything else right, every time, the number of extra targets you gain with a full is very small.
The point Leo always tried to make was you have to train yourself to do everything right, every time. That’s what a full choke does. It helps you to become a better “pointer”. You can’t depend on sloppy luck. The best shooters are those who do the most things right, for the biggest number of times.
 

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Discussion Starter #116
Just to set the record straight... I NEVER SAID that I didn't like to shoot handicap. In 16 years I don't remember EVER not shooting handicap. Over the years I have had some successes at it. In my third year of shooting (started at 50 by the way) I went from the 24 (I think) to the 27 in four days in Vandalia. Shot a 99 from the 26 to punch to the 27. I shot a 99 to win the State championship from the 24 or 25. Last year I shot a 98 from the 25 to punch to the 26 where I am now. What I said, and think was misunderstood, was that I have been on the 27 twice and not good enough to stay there. Again, I NEVER said I didn't like to shoot caps.
I have never received a punch that was not shot with at least a 96. I did the above listed scores with a 25 thousands choke too.
I tell people and laugh, If they will get a machine that will throw doubles, I'll get an automatic and shoot that too!!
Jim

Oh, and as an aside---four days after I made the 27, I went to a small club in North Alabama
and just RIPPED A 64 OUT OF THE SKY!!!!
 

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Jim I was talking about the posters that get on choke threads and seem to shift the discussion towards the 16 all time. We have Mr. Ducks who seems to talk about choke performance but really does not shoot handicap.

Handicap to me is the core of American Style Trap and too often gets ignored. You are a strong supporter and participant in our sport--unfortunately we get too many who really do not participate in trapshooting on a consistent level esp. in caps yet hand out all kinds of advice on what a shooter should be doing for choke tubes and pattern performance.
 

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Common sense tells me that the spin will slow down to some degree.
Of course, but in the time span of a target being launched from the machine until the time it lands, the video evidence is that the spin rate has not changed much at all. Here's what Neil said:

"Now if anyone actually downloads those videos and then counts the turns, he or she will see that the spin of the targets does not slow on the way to the stake more than between zero and three percent. Said another way, a revolution takes 18 (1/600 second) frames at the start. And at the end a revolution takes between 18 and 18 1/2 frames. That means the target is spinning about the same at the start and at the end."

Pat Traps have a very slow spin to them according to this installer.
Check that thread I posted from 2013. Neil tested the spin rate of Pat and GMV Star Trap machines. They were both 2000 rpm.
 

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Oh, and as an aside---four days after I made the 27, I went to a small club in North Alabama
and just RIPPED A 64 OUT OF THE SKY!!!!
Don't feel bad Jim. I am also a member of the 60's club. Several years ago I shot a 97 on a Thursday and got a bump to the 26 yard line. The very next day a weather front came through and we had a strong wind in our faces. I shot a 60. Not very good for the ego!
 

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All shotgun patterns have patchy spots then. Its the space between pellets. The reason that patchyiness doesn't have a value or metric to go with it, its a qualitative term that people like to throw around on gun club porches for the sake of sounding like they are knee deep in trap shooting slang.
I need to collect all of the trap slang for funsies.
But until I do I guess I'm off to add 6 feet of smoothness to my swing...or is smoothness measured in liters...i always mix it up.

But I think I get your drift.
Even though you were only able to find concrete evidence of the gun going bang, the upside is you got to be outside shooting with the wife enjoying the outdoors. That's always a win.
Well I guess you can look at it that way except she was doing the shooting during the patterning . I guess you can believe what you want to. The fact is with the #8 the holes patchy, sparse ( whatever you want to call them ) were more numerous in those patterns . That was not my imagination. BTW I am not the only person in this game who has seen shotguns pattern better with different shot sizes. If no one ever believed it they would on;y make one shot size and I guess "everybody" would be happy. You can believe what you want too. I know what I saw on the pattern sheets and that's all that matters to me.
 
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