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We are a small club hosting even smaller ATA events. We have always kept shooters within their own selected category (Vet, Ladies, Junior) .... or open class (A, B, C, D). Some of our shooters have been going out to bigger shoots, the ones that can manage the paperwork and score analysis quickly and they allow this "Category loser" to "fall-back to class" ...

This is now (and suddenly) new causing problems and drama,.... even though we have always done it that way.... At our shoot, a Vet Runner-up stays a vet runner-up.... he doesn't drop down to take a B Class trophy away from the B Class winner. .. you get what I'm saying...

These sore losers are waving the rule book at us and saying they should be allowed to fall-back, even though it delays the shoot, and entails possible additional shoot-offs... which nobody was expecting...The B Class trophy has already left the grounds with the B Class winner 30 minutes ago...

My question: is this okay? or should we add specific language in our shoot program to cover this... If so, how would you word it? ... thanks
 

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Category people get two chances to win a trophy. Everybody else only gets one chance. Last month I missed out on a doubles trophy because a category shooter didn't win his category, and fell back to class. I questioned the rule with a delegate, and they confirmed it was true (although they didn't agree with it). It's a bad idea, if you ask me. If you choose category, then you stay should stay in category.
 

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If a Category Shooter does not win Event or Category Champion and doesn't shoot off for same they should be eligible for class trophies.

If the ATA doesn't supply the Trophies, It is up to the club to make the rule on Falling back.

Are you saying you only allow Category shooters to compete for Category Trophies?
That is not something I have ever seen and you would want to spell that out in your program.

Its All Good
West
 

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I agree with making it clear.

If a "B" or "C" class senior vet can't fall back to class why would he declare Category only to compete against "AA" & "AAA" shooters in Category.

"Category Shooters are not eligible for Class Trophies"
That should be pretty clear if you put it in the program.

Its All Good

West
 

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You wrote: "At our shoot, a Vet Runner-up stays a vet runner-up.... he doesn't drop down to take a B Class trophy away from the B Class winner. .. you get what I'm saying..."

If this is your policy you should state this in your program. I am 80 years old but at Classification time I tell em my Special Category is Ordinary Un-Employed Adult so I don't have to shoot against 70 year old AA Shooters who are on the State Team. If you forced me to declare Senior Vet I would not show up at your Shoot.
 

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If a Category shooter is tied for a Category Trophy, then by ATA rule they can't fall back if unsuccessful in winning that. If they are not implicated in a Category Trophy, they are then eligible for any Class Trophy they may be in. There's no "option" once you Declare Category.
 

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If a Category shooter is tied for a Category Trophy, then by ATA rule they can't fall back if unsuccessful in winning that. If they are not implicated in a Category Trophy, they are then eligible for any Class Trophy they may be in. There's no "option" once you Declare Category.
That's only true at tournaments where ATA trophies and/or All American points are awarded (Rule book section X, D).
 

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I understand both sides of that. I shot a 99 in handicap in the Grand week. There were a few 100's. I lost the shootoff for Veteran and your out of everything but shooters with a lower score took maybe 7 th to 10 th place etc. It was hard to believe you could shoot a 99 from 27 yards at the Grand when there was only a few 100's and go home with nothing.
 

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One other thing is most category trophy's are of less value or quantity. Example are class might have 4 flats of shells to the winner, 3 to runner-up and 2 for 3rd place while category only has 1 flat to the winner.
 

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At most smaller shoots you shoot for Champ then fall back to Special Category not class or yardage .
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
At our shoots, you are either in a category or a class, ...... “class” is your default by not declaring a category when you register.... be you a vet., a lady or a junior

In fact, ... this is not unusual at all the local shoots I go to ... there are category shooters and class shooters ... that is all... no fall backs.

I hope V10 means that this "fall-back to class" only applies to All American points or ATA trophies?.... if not, that is how it should be...

I'm telling you, the 'fall back to class' feature would be a can of worms. The local ATA shoots are getting to be a big enough hassle as it is with low attendance and new county health code mandates, higher target costs, fees and trap labor shortages.... it won't take many more complications for them to become obsolete
 

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I'm telling you, the 'fall back to class' feature would be a can of worms.
Falling back can be an issue. But to Fall Back you must first shoot for Champion or Category.

Lets say for example a B class Senior Vet breaks the lone 90 in Doubles.
If the Event Champion is won with a 96, and Senior Vet is won with a lone 95.
His 90 is high in B class he would be the B Class winner.

This is not falling back because he didn't shoot off for anything.
He was never in the running for Senior Vet.

I think this is common out West.

Its All Good

West
 

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Some of the clubs in our area solved this by not offering categories, just classes and yardage groups. Much cleaner and better payouts, the smaller shoots will only have a bunch of Sub vets and only a couple if any in the other popular categories. I'd rather beat 20 people in my class than 2 in a category.
 

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Those waiving the rulebook, should check that it is the current 2019 rulebook.

Page 35 ATA 2019 Rulebook
4. Any shooter who has declared a special category at the time of classification and whose score qualifies for any trophy in his/her declared category, will compete for the category trophy and not for place, class or yardage group. If there is no Event Champion Trophy, a declared Category shooter will take the Category Trophy and may not fall back to the Class Trophy.

Now if there is no trophy for Vet Runner Up then they may have a case.

I am not sure if your program would over ride ATA rules about keeping shooters in category. If the shooter does not win a trophy in category they would fall back to class.

Jason
 

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Those waiving the rulebook, should check that it is the current 2019 rulebook.

Page 35 ATA 2019 Rulebook
4. Any shooter who has declared a special category at the time of classification and whose score qualifies for any trophy in his/her declared category, will compete for the category trophy and not for place, class or yardage group. If there is no Event Champion Trophy, a declared Category shooter will take the Category Trophy and may not fall back to the Class Trophy.

Now if there is no trophy for Vet Runner Up then they may have a case.

I am not sure if your program would over ride ATA rules about keeping shooters in category. If the shooter does not win a trophy in category they would fall back to class.

Jason
You have to read the lead in for that paragraph, D, of section X:

"The following rules apply to every event at any tournament which includes ATA trophies and/or All American points on any event:"

Those rules do not apply to small local shoots unless shoot management wants to impose them. Shoot management is free to determine trophy "fall back" at a non-ATA trophy/point shoot.
 

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Why not let everyone fall back and back again until they get a participation trophy they deserve. Trophies shouldn’t just be for winning scores but them 83’s and 82’s need to be rewarded for coming just 17 or 18 targets behind them lucky shooters who break them all. LOL!
 

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So as long as there are no trophies provided by the ATA, write in the program how you have always done it.

I would suggest that if there is an Over All Champion and Runner up trophy that every one is allowed compete for that.
After that they compete Category or Class. You should state that if they declare a Category they will compete for Category and there will be no fall back to Class.

Jason
 

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Some of the clubs in our area solved this by not offering categories, just classes and yardage groups. Much cleaner and better payouts, the smaller shoots will only have a bunch of Sub vets and only a couple if any in the other popular categories. I'd rather beat 20 people in my class than 2 in a category.
Sounds like this should be the way to go. Just run classes.
 
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