HMB ........ where's the rule about B in singles ?
The facts are a club can legally put a shooter (new or otherwise) any where they want if it states the system IN THE PROGRAM!
It is generally accepted that in SINGLES, a club should try to ascertain a "KNOWN ABILITY" from other shooting statistics and/or acquaintances of the shooter ....... lacking ANY DATA (VERY UNLIKELY) ...... class B is acceptable ....... but if there is NO DATA and NO SHOOTER KNOWLEDGE, and the prizes and/or options are typical for a small shoot ...... the guy is obviously a brand new shooter, I think should [maybe] be put in C, but actually, probably D is better.
HANDICAP is different ......... ATA rules state a "NEW" adult male shooter starts on the 20 yard line! Any deviation from this should [legally] ONLY be employed if there is an inordinate amount of value attached to the shoot (BIG $$$$, and/or BIG TITLES i.e. STATE or ZONE shoots, etc.) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY ..... STATED IN THE PROGRAM !!!!
motrap has it right. In fact, if it's someone I don't know I ask what's been an "average" score in league or practice. If I hear "20" or the like I use D class and I've never been burned, as far as I know. This A class/23 yards Phil talks about when there's nothing special to win is way, way too hard, in my opinion.
Neil I agree with your assessments and your opinion. That being said it is still just an opinion, according to the rule book under classification Sec. V paragraph C and Sec, VI paragraph F(Penalty Yardage) it is legal. It does not however promote the sport or ATA shooting. Just my opinion.
If it is a registered shoot then it should follow the rules set by ATA and if the club wishes to change such rules it should no longer be a registered shoot.
If clubs are modifying the rules and regulations set by the ATA they should be looked at by the ATA and possible be sanctioned by the ATA as to there future ability to hold registered shoots. If you want to take this sport as serious as some do than follow the sport to the letter of the laws and rules sent down by the ATA. If you see a problem with those rules and regulations that contact the delegates and the board and lobby to have them changed.
Question for Mr Winston ... does the ATA sanction shoots and those individual clubs that take it upon themselves to change the rules the ATA has set regarding the classification of shooters? You asked me once before about what I meant about the fairness and changes of the ATA and this is one of those reasons ... clubs changing the rules of the ATA for sometimes legitimate reasons or for there own clubs benefits and or the benefits of there shooters is one of those things I was talking about. Does the ATA sanction these practices?
Why are you challenging the ATA on this. The club did not break any ATA rules, as explained above. Most would agree they are being overly strict, but penalty yardage and penalty class are always at shoot management's discretion. It is not something the ATA has any control over.
The club is not "changing the rules of the ATA..."
The problem is with shoot management, not the ATA.
If it is left up to the discretion of the shoot management (the club) then there really are no set rules by the ATA for people to follow.
I'm not challenging ... well yeah I kind of am challenging the ATA on this ... do they or do they not have set rules to follow for registered shoots and matches?
If you take a jaywalker into court who declares that by his discretion he determined it to be safe to jaywalk and thus not follow the rules does this make him not guilty of breaking the rules? If there are rules set down to follow but it is also up to the discretion to change those rules to suit the situation at hand then they are not rules and there is no actual rule book but instead they are just guidelines which allow you to do what you desire. Is there an ATA rule book or an ATA set of guidelines?
I believe it is at the clubs discression where they put you. At the Midwinter shoot in Las Vegas it stated "You must have a minimum of 1000 16yd & hdcp, and 500 dbls targets in the prior 24 months, or shoot penalty of AA, 25yd, A respectively." At other shoots I have seen it at B and 20 yards.
Lumper, What don't you understand. The ATA has a set of Rules, within those rules are some parameters allowing the local club some flexibility if they feel it is necessary for the given shoot that they are sponsoring.Bob Hawkes
Read the rule book before you make claims like that. ATA has set rules to follow. They also allow each shoot to set their own requirements for penalty class or yardage, including having no penalty requirements if that fits the type of shoot. ATA does not know the particulars of your shoot, who is better to determine if penalty should apply than the ones that run the shoot? ATA does not know how much money or trophies are at stake.
Don't complain about it to the ATA, get shooters together and complain to those running shoots where the penalty rules they apply do not seem to be warranted.
The clubs rules take over where the ATA's rules end ... The shoot management can enforce the clubs standards and rules without being in violation of any and all ATA rules ... If the classifications and penalty yardage are in the program thats the way it is and its enforceable from the clubs standpoint ... The ATA rules are a guideline for all clubs to follow, club rules may vary and be totally different but are still rules and enforceable ... I have had to classify people many times who were not really happy with the classification but the choices they had were shoot or do not shoot, the classifications and penalty yardage stayed the same ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
Those that run some shoots are running them under the guidelines/rules set by the ATA but do what they desire because the ATA allows them to do what they wish. If there were actual rules then there would be no questions at all ... rules are made for people to follow and guidelines are set so people can do what they desire within a parameter of rules.
Dont take this the wrong way people ... I'm not trying to ruffle the panties of the masses but are they rules or just guidelines to follow? I always thought that you follow the rules but when you are given guidelines to follow you can almost do what you want within those guidelines. Does the ATA set guidelines or rules for clubs to follow? Does it say rulebook on the cover or guidebook?
I do agree that it could be problems at shoots for equalily of the shooters abilitys if they did not take it upon themselves to change the guidelined rulebook some would have a problem and feel cheated but thats tough ... live with it and deal with it and contact the ATA and ask them to change there rules.
I kind of see this as more of an ATA topic than a individual club issue since they are ATA registered shoots/matches/targets.
If you shoot many ATA events you would understand why the rule allows clubs latitude. Most that are new to ATA end up starting at the local level at shoots with little or no prizes offered. Forcing someone to shoot from a yardage or in a class beyond their ability isn't going to make them want to come back. On the other hand, if you do go someplace early in your ATA career that is offering nice prizes that club needs to protect its reputation of putting on shoots that are fair. They would rather run off one new guy to keep the other 100 regulars happy, because if the new guy doesn't shoot penalty yardage and ends up being a sandbagger and winning all the money then they will lose 100 shooters.
WPT and others had it right, it's a shoot management issue.
Sounds like the place and shoot you describe is a relatively small shoot at a local club? The practice you describe is called "Penalty Yardage and Classification", legal under ATA rules if it's specified in the shoot program. It's legitimate purpose is to prevent a really tuff shooter from coming in from the woods that nobody's heard of and has no ATA target history from cleaning up at a major shoot.
IMO, at small local shoots like you describe it's a hell of a way to do buisiness, discourages new shooters from continuing past the first shoot they go to. I think it's the single most important factor in new people dropping out after one or two shoots and then never shooting ATA again! ANY CLUB THAT APPLIES PENALTY YARDAGE AND CLASSIFICATION AT SMALL SHOOTS IS ACTING TO THE DETRIMENT OF THE SPORT---------IMO !! I've railed against the practice both on this board and out here in my home area everytime the subject comes up and will continue to do so 'til hell freezes over. It's done at WAY too many clubs and indicates that the good ol' boys in the club would rather win their own shoot than promote the sport to new shooters.
Neil ... so its a Seinfeld type of rule where its a rule thats not really a rule because you say it but they can change what ya say as they see fit so it really aint a following type of rule but it is a rule that is up to them to follow if they desire or otherwise known as a guideline.
Scott ... I fully understand your reasoning but there are people who cheat everyday and that is something that must be lived with. If a club were to offer prizes and also make a stipulation that only an excisting ATA registered shooter with a certified ATA classification may shoot for prizes that would end most problems of sandbaggers and then it is the club making the rules to govern there own shoot and at the same time not modifying the guidelines/rules set by the ATA on shooter classification.
Oh yeah I forgot ... there not really rule rules but there rule rules instead. ;-)
I don't get it, lumper. It's a rule. New shooters can be put in any class, singles or doubles. There used to be a "guideline" of B class but it was removed, the rules committee thinking, as you do, that rules are better than guidelines. So they made it a rule, and deep-sixed the guidelines. We hope you appove.
I used to shoot games every week at one club or another ... I got to know all of the game shooters and had a lot of respect for them from the 27 yardline and back because at any time anyone of them could jump up and put a hurtin on you ... I was at a registered shoot one time and one of the game shooters just happened to show up and figured he was going to walk in and take all the trophys and money because his real yardage was 20 or 21 yards I forget which one but it don't matter ... To make a long story short I asked who classified this shooter and was told that management did and that it was his ATA yardage and there was no penalty yardage at this particular shoot ... I figured "why look a gift horse in the mouth" and bought this guy in the Calcutta for $20 and I figured I stole this guy ... Well, this big time game shooter shot a whopping 71 from 20 or 21 yards and was no place to be found after he got done shooting ... I also got to know him so well that if you even mention the "F" word while shooting the games or at any other time this guy was fried and just packed up and would leave because from the time you said "Flinch" until the night was over thats all he would do on every single target ... Talk about getting into a guys head, he was way too easy ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
I like the way you think and fully agree with all you said, especially ... "discourages new shooters from continuing past the first shoot they go to. I think it's the single most important factor in new people dropping out after one or two shoots and then never shooting ATA again!"
ATA shooters wonder why the sport is slowly but surely losing shooters at the smaller events and you have pegged one of those reasons. Sooner or later it will trickle down to the larger events and the grand when the amount of shooter begin to dwindle because of what the smaller clubs do by there own discretions to new shooters.
Neil ... what is the rule when a new shooter registers and wants to shoot. What classification does the ATA rule give that shooter. Now this is where it gets sticky. It aint the ATA rule that is being followed when a person at some range is telling them they are classified as something different because ... well ... because they can do that.
Is there a set rule from the ATA or a possible 100 different variations of the rules from a 100 different ranges?