[dirt stirrer]

Yeah, I know,

I have used Cheddites for years, subbing them directly for Winchesters with no issues whatsoever. Today, however, an odd thing happened. i came into a brick of old Winchester 209s from Dad's stash (he passed away in January of this year). Ran some equally loaded hulls and decided to go run them across the chrono just for the heck of it. BPI says Ched primer, 17 grains Titewad under a PT 1205/Fiocchi H-27 wad and 1 oz payload should give 1200 fps in a Cheddite hull, in my case Challenger.. My bored 1 oz bar is throwing 30 grams (1.04 oz) so the resulting velocity of 1175-1185 is understandable. BUT, when I decided to use these orphan Winchesters up, I thankfully loaded just a handful to compare them, the identical recipe on 4 of 5 sample shells dropped to 920 fps, with one running 1180. WTF. These primers have got to be 40 years old, or more. Lot number of KLL166 on boxes, but I dunno how to check age, and would age have that much of an affect? They sounded way weaker too, but not exactly poofter sounds.

I really don't want to experiment with an increase in powder to get them up to 1180, especially with this one of five shell running normal. Concerns me that I might get a heater every once in a while. It's only 1000 primers, well, 990 +/- now, so tempted to toss them, but that is sacrilege in these hard to find times.

Anyone else ever have issues with aged primers?

 

[rapid86]

I've used used 20 year old W209s, stored in the garage, hot in summer, cold in winter, with no issues whatsoever.

 

[trapperwads]

Yeah, I know, View attachment 1764202

I have used Cheddites for years, subbing them directly for Winchesters with no issues whatsoever. Today, however, an odd thing happened. i came into a brick of old Winchester 209s from Dad's stash (he passed away in January of this year). Ran some equally loaded hulls and decided to go run them across the chrono just for the heck of it. BPI says Ched primer, 17 grains Titewad under a PT 1205/Fiocchi H-27 wad and 1 oz payload should give 1200 fps in a Cheddite hull, in my case Challenger.. My bored 1 oz bar is throwing 30 grams (1.04 oz) so the resulting velocity of 1175-1185 is understandable. BUT, when I decided to use these orphan Winchesters up, I thankfully loaded just a handful to compare them, the identical recipe on 4 of 5 sample shells dropped to 920 fps, with one running 1180. WTF. These primers have got to be 40 years old, or more. Lot number of KLL166 on boxes, but I dunno how to check age, and would age have that much of an affect? They sounded way weaker too, but not exactly poofter sounds.

I really don't want to experiment with an increase in powder to get them up to 1180, especially with this one of five shell running normal. Concerns me that I might get a heater every once in a while. It's only 1000 primers, well, 990 +/- now, so tempted to toss them, but that is sacrilege in these hard to find times.

Anyone else ever have issues with aged primers?

Use them. Try bumping the powder half grain at a time? Call the powder manufacturer for advice. Be careful. The only age that bothers me is that of the shooter.

 

[dirt stirrer]

Use them. Try bumping the powder half grain at a time? Call the powder manufacturer for advice. Be careful. The only age that bothers me is that of the shooter.

Before I do, I may test some more to see if I get any more zingers. That's what concerns me. I've never had this issue before, curious if'n it might be the TiteWad, I have mostly used Red Dot and Promo in the past, never experienced this. The aged primers is the only difference here.

 

[pheasantmaster]

Yeah, I know, View attachment 1764202

I have used Cheddites for years, subbing them directly for Winchesters with no issues whatsoever. Today, however, an odd thing happened. i came into a brick of old Winchester 209s from Dad's stash (he passed away in January of this year). Ran some equally loaded hulls and decided to go run them across the chrono just for the heck of it. BPI says Ched primer, 17 grains Titewad under a PT 1205/Fiocchi H-27 wad and 1 oz payload should give 1200 fps in a Cheddite hull, in my case Challenger.. My bored 1 oz bar is throwing 30 grams (1.04 oz) so the resulting velocity of 1175-1185 is understandable. BUT, when I decided to use these orphan Winchesters up, I thankfully loaded just a handful to compare them, the identical recipe on 4 of 5 sample shells dropped to 920 fps, with one running 1180. WTF. These primers have got to be 40 years old, or more. Lot number of KLL166 on boxes, but I dunno how to check age, and would age have that much of an affect? They sounded way weaker too, but not exactly poofter sounds.

I really don't want to experiment with an increase in powder to get them up to 1180, especially with this one of five shell running normal. Concerns me that I might get a heater every once in a while. It's only 1000 primers, well, 990 +/- now, so tempted to toss them, but that is sacrilege in these hard to find times.

Anyone else ever have issues with aged primers?

Before I do, I may test some more to see if I get any more zingers. That's what concerns me. I've never had this issue before, curious if'n it might be the TiteWad, I have mostly used Red Dot and Promo in the past, never experienced this. The aged primers is the only difference here.

Can you post a pic of one box (top side)?

 

[ezz555]

That one running 1180 would make be hesitant to bump the powder up. I believe you are on the right track to check a bit more. I know of two different people who had really old primers to where they go bang but don't quite get a fire lit under the powder. I am not sure how old really old is though.

 

[broadway john]

Two questions, are the flash holes in the primers covered and if open is powder fine enough to migrate into primer?

 

[pheasantmaster]

Two questions, are the flash holes in the primers covered and if open is powder fine enough to migrate into primer?

Did Winchester offer uncovered flash holes for sale on the consumer market?

If so, what era?

 

[LowBrass366]

Let me know where the horse is, my dogs will eat it.

 

[dirt stirrer]

Two questions, are the flash holes in the primers covered and if open is powder fine enough to migrate into primer?

These have a white paper looking flash hole cover. Cheds are red lacquer. Like I said, no date stamp on box, only a lot #.

I'll try to get a pic of the box posted in the morning. Top flap of brick box has been torn off, apparently by Dad. The individual boxes will have to do. They are in a white box, BTW

 

[broadway john]

Did Winchester offer uncovered flash holes for sale on the consumer market?

If so, what era?

Just asking as I have never used Winchester primers, only Federal and Cheddite.

 

[1240fps]

I would probably hand load the powder into the hulls and chrono once again.

 

[dirt stirrer]

Pics of box. Headed out to chrono 10 more “weighed” samples. Results later

 

[acorange]

Looking at the staining on the box maybe they were not "stored in a cool/dry place". I also have recently used up some old Rem. #97 primers that seemed "weak". To show how old they were the price on them was $10.00 per/K.

 

[flashmax]

Pics of box. Headed out to chrono 10 more “weighed” samples. Results later

View attachment 1764318 View attachment 1764319 View attachment 1764320

Box has had liquid of some sort on / in it. If there was any oil in the liquid that will kill or at least injure their blast radius. Look very closely at the individual packages for signs of that liquid.

 

[dirt stirrer]

Box has had liquid of some sort on / in it. If there was any oil in the liquid that will kill or at least injure their blast radius. Look very closely at the individual packages for signs of that liquid.

Yeah, I saw that on the brick box, but individual boxes are all sparkly white, so they didn't get whatever that stain is on them. There were some years that Dad did not cool his loading room, so it likely got toasty. He did most of his loading in cooler weather and winter when he could easily heat it.

I just hand weighed a dozen more test rounds, and got the same results. Anywhere from 820 to 900, with a zinger that hit 1100. I have generally had good readings with this chrono on shotshells, but I also got a few readings above 3000, but the poofter sound was the same as all other rounds. I think it was the bright sun fiddling with readings.

Nonetheless, if there is anyone close to my AO that wants these things, I'm gonna deep six them. The only other option is to try them with some Red Dot and see if they perform better with flake than ball powder.

 

[flashmax]

Yeah, I saw that on the brick box, but individual boxes are all sparkly white, so they didn't get whatever that stain is on them. There were some years that Dad did not cool his loading room, so it likely got toasty. He did most of his loading in cooler weather and winter when he could easily heat it.

I just hand weighed a dozen more test rounds, and got the same results. Anywhere from 820 to 900, with a zinger that hit 1100. I have generally had good readings with this chrono on shotshells, but I also got a few readings above 3000, but the poofter sound was the same as all other rounds. I think it was the bright sun fiddling with readings.

Nonetheless, if there is anyone close to my AO that wants these things, I'm gonna deep six them. The only other option is to try them with some Red Dot and see if they perform better with flake than ball powder.

See if you can find an inline black powder shooter. They use 209’s to light off their charge.

 

[pheasantmaster]

Yeah, I saw that on the brick box, but individual boxes are all sparkly white, so they didn't get whatever that stain is on them. There were some years that Dad did not cool his loading room, so it likely got toasty. He did most of his loading in cooler weather and winter when he could easily heat it.

I just hand weighed a dozen more test rounds, and got the same results. Anywhere from 820 to 900, with a zinger that hit 1100. I have generally had good readings with this chrono on shotshells, but I also got a few readings above 3000, but the poofter sound was the same as all other rounds. I think it was the bright sun fiddling with readings.

Nonetheless, if there is anyone close to my AO that wants these things, I'm gonna deep six them. The only other option is to try them with some Red Dot and see if they perform better with flake than ball powder.

Good decision.

Even though interior boxes don't show moisture signs, something has stained the carton.

If they lived in high humidity for extended period that would/could effect them as well.

 

[Nebs]

I'd be interested in your results with Red Dot and whether there is a difference in performance with flake vs. ball powder.

 

[dirt stirrer]

I'd be interested in your results with Red Dot and whether there is a difference in performance with flake vs. ball powder.

Loaded up tonight. 18 gr, same wad/hull/shot wt. Will chrono in the morning.

I did call a BP shooter to see if he could use some, told him the issue. I would hate to renege. (Can I say that without getting banned?)

Edited to change spelling to protect the innocent.