I think that there was a test and it was worst, not much but worst.
I remember reading that it was just a matter of economy of scale mass producing the barrels.
Not a scientific analysis by any means, but for several years I shot games with a gentleman with a model 12 heavy duck gun and he was tough as nails whether Annie’s or 40 yd races. His patterns seemed to be pretty good.
This would be really hard to test and get a true result.
You could just take two nearly identical barrels, one with a short chamber, one with a long one, all else equal, and pattern test them. But then if you have a difference, can you be sure the difference would be attributable to the longer / shorter chamber, or some other thing?
Or, take a barrel with a short chamber, that has enough meat on it to machine in a longer chamber, and do a before / after test, with all other factors equal or as similar as possible, including the weather.
I think the answer is probably, the difference is inconsequential. But that's just speculation on my part.
This would be really hard to test and get a true result.
You could just take two nearly identical barrels, one with a short chamber, one with a long one, all else equal, and pattern test them. But then if you have a difference, can you be sure the difference would be attributable to the longer / shorter chamber, or some other thing.
Or, take a barrel with a short chamber, that has enough meat on it to machine in a longer chamber, and do a before / after test, with all other factors equal or as similar as possible, including the weather.
I think the answer is probably, the difference is inconsequential. But that's just speculation on my part.
Ok they may be asking about removing or changing the forcing cone. Many people have had that done. What is the benefit and what is the difference between that and a 3 inch chamber?
The only time you need a 3" chamber, is when you have 3" shells.
Once the POI of a barrel is set to your liking, I don't see how the pattern would be different, because the shot won't disperse until it leaves the barrel, with the wad.
Assuming you are talking about the difference between a 2-3/4" chamber with a lengthened forcing cone, and a 3" chamber with a standard forcing cone.
First, the chamber length for the 2-3/4" chamber is approximately the same length as a fired hull, then the taper starts, and is a conical shape to transition from the (approximately) 0.800" chamber bore, to the barrel bore, whatever that is (standard is 0.729".) A "standard" forcing cone is about a 5° 30' angle with the bore centerline.
A "lengthened" forcing cone is a more shallow angle (less than 5°.)
Of course, the chamber length for a 3" chamber is about 3", then the forcing cone starts.
See dimension "E" in the diagram below for the chamber length.
So when you shoot a 2-3/4" cartridge in a 3" chamber, there is a "gap" of about 1/4" between the end of the opened hull and the start of the forcing cone.
Never having tested it, I can only speculate that the pressure difference would be zero, since I think the pressure spike happens before all the "stuff" has even fully left the cartridge.
both of my gun's have 3 inch chambers, one is a Browning CXT the other is a Krieghoff KX6 i could care less whether it's 2 3/4 or 3 inch chamber as long as the gun is pointed where it need's to be the target will break
I am not certain about this using lead but, shooting Steel 2-3/4" loads through a 3" chamber will not produce the best patterns. Yes, I have patterned. Yes, I have chronographed. Yes, I have tried different guns. For obvious reasons, a 2-3/4" chamber will produce much more uniform patterns. I am from far Northern Minnesota so, maybe it's the Latitude.
Darrel
Darrel -- I would be interested in your thoughts on the "obvious" reasons for the more uniform patterns and any patterning data you have to show the phenomenon.
I've patterned a good number of 2 3/4-inch steel loads through 3-inch chambers, with good results, so I would be interested in your thoughts on this topic.
Every time I shoot Trap I shoot both a 2 3/4 inch target barrel on a 11-87 for Singles and 3 inch 1100 barrel.
Truth is I don't think I could prove which is better as one has choke tubes one does not, one is overboard and one is not. One is 30 inches long one 32 inch. If there is a difference what would have the most effect bore size, choke or chamber ? I will just try and keep my head down and forget the trivial.
Every time I shoot Trap I shoot both a 2 3/4 inch target barrel on a 11-87 for Singles and 3 inch 1100 barrel.
Truth is I don't think I could prove which is better as one has choke tubes one does not, one is overboard and one is not. One is 30 inches long one 32 inch. If there is a difference what would have the most effect bore size, choke or chamber ? I will just try and keep my head down and forget the trivial.
Prior to WWI U.S. doubles makers (except Smith and Ithaca) cut chambers about 1/8 inch shorter than the shells for which they were intended ie. 2 5/8" 12g chambers for 2 3/4" shells. Even in the 1930's there were articles in The American Rifleman on the virtue of short chambers and Charles Askins in Modern Shotguns and Loads, 1929 said that US makers were still cutting their chambers shorter as patterns were improved shooting 2-3/4" loads in a 2-5/8" chamber. This was in the days of roll-crimping and card over-wads and it was felt that the seal would be more efficient with slightly shorter chambers; gas "blow-by" would decrease fps and possibly increase pellet deformation.
In a 1925 letter promoting the Long Range Wild Fowl double, Hunter Arms stated that using a 2 3/4" shell in a 3" chamber would cause a 5% loss in pattern
That theoretical concern probably didn't matter after the introduction of the Winchester-Western "Super Seal Crimp" in the early 50s, then the Remington ‘SP’ high density polyethylene compression formed hull in 1960, followed by the Remington polyethylene ‘Power Piston’ Figure 8 wad in 1966.
I have not however seen actual pattern comparison studies comparing 2 3/4" shells in 2 3/4" chambers vs. 3" chambers.
Darrel -- I would be interested in your thoughts on the "obvious" reasons for the more uniform patterns and any patterning data you have to show the phenomenon.
I've patterned a good number of 2 3/4-inch steel loads through 3-inch chambers, with good results, so I would be interested in your thoughts on this topic.
My belief is that steel is not forgiving and any interference in it's trajectory is going to result in errant pellets interrupting/affecting the shot string. Lead will simply deform and stay in place-resulting in a flier. Really no different than how the concentricity of a bullet is effected by a fouled barrel. Al I can say is, the proof is on the paper and in the birds.....first hand. But, this may just be my simple mind getting ahead of itself. Stay well.
Darrel
My belief is that steel is not forgiving and any interference in it's trajectory is going to result in errant pellets interrupting/affecting the shot string. Lead will simply deform and stay in place-resulting in a flier... Al I can say is, the proof is on the paper and in the birds.....first hand.
Thanks for the reply, but just not sure how a 3-inch chamber is going to put more "interference" on a steel load's trajectory than a lead load's. Yes, lead pellets deform from setback forces on ignition, bore scrub on its travel down the barrel, and compression at choke passage that results in fliers that tend to divert out from the pattern center and fall behind the main shot cloud due to air resistance. On the other hand, steel pellets are subject to these same forces, but due to their hardness and being encased in a tough shotcup don't deform and should have fewer fliers.
I agree, the proof is on paper and in birds/targets. If you have any pattern data showing this phenomenon, I'd be interested in seeing it.
I've done some quick tests on that over the years. No meaningful difference from 2.75 to 3.0 but wow 3.5" autos were bad compared to the others. I was shocked. That brought me to ask Berretta and Benelli at the grand why the big push on all the hunters and beginners to use the 3.5 do all gun. They acknowledged that if shooting 2.75 shells most of the time, the patterns do suffer greatly but can be improved a little with the newer improved forcing cones. Then came the reality---- "Well, customers want a 31/2" that does it all with 1 gun and thats what we give them" There you have it.
I tell most of my friends and beginners if your shooting 99% of the time with 2 3/4 (which is everyone) then just get the 3 and get by the few supermag shots fired in your life with 3" mags instead of 3 1/2".
The US is a Magnum crazy nation and the Firearms/Ammo industry feeds it well. Fact is, most buyers don't understand what is meant by the term "Magnum" as it relates to ammunition and their assumption ends up costing them a lot of dollars and frustration in guns that won't run. I am a 2-3/4" shooter for everything and always have been. I reload all of my Game and Waterfowl loads which are chronographed and patterned. The real proof is on the game and they perform well. Once ballistics and choking are figured out, it's a pretty simple game.
Thank goodness I shoot an old style BT99 with a fixed full choke. Nothing is adjustable-----Browning did all the thinking. All I have to do is keep my head down & smoke the target. Easy, Peasy.
My DT11L Trap has 3in chambers . I remember taking it out of the box the first time at the gun shop to inspect it prior to paying for it and reading the 3in chamber and thinking that Beretta had sent the wrong gun, only to roll the barrel over and read Trap on the other side . I really don’t understand why you would chamber a dedicated trap gun to 3in. I must admit, it feels softer to shoot but I don’t think the 3in chamber has all that much to do with it
Would 3" shells with a 1 1/8 oz payload be legal for trap?
Not sure whether it was Browning or Beretta but about 30 years ago one of them was claiming 15% better patterns for there 2 3/4 target guns. I remember I felt left out because whatever I was shooting then had 3' chambers. I do have a Model 12 with 2 3/4 chambers and it does pattern nicely.
Agree with Denny, rules only say 12 ga or smaller, amount of shot, amount of shot and speed for that amount of shot.
But I would suspect that you may get challenged if anyone sees the shell/hulls.
Jason
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