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Does anyone know what the rules was in approx. 1990 to 1994 regarding registered birds and squading? How many shooters had to be on a squad to register birds? Was 5 mandatory back then? Thanks, Bulge.
ATA rule question.
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I wasn't shooting until 1999 but FWIW I can't imagine there would've been a mandatory number of shooters on a squad? Do you perhaps mean instead a mandatory number of shooters signed up in the EVENT?
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1993: Rule III, A - "... To constitute a registered shoot at least five (5) or more persons must compete and complete each event, ... "
2011: Rule IV, A, 2, c: "c. at least three (3) or more contestants must compete in and complete the same event on the same day of competition."
2011: Rule IV, A, 2, c: "c. at least three (3) or more contestants must compete in and complete the same event on the same day of competition."
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V10, thank you. That was the info I was looking for. Bulge.
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So, are we coming to the conclusion, to shoot registered birds in 1990 you had to have 5 men on the squad to register the birds? Is this right? Mike.
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"Hold on folks. The ATA required 5 people on a squad in 1990 and still has the same requirement."
trap4ever if this were true you would never see a squad with less than 5 shooters on it and I feel pretty sure everyone has seen short squads before. The ATA does have a maximum of 5 shooter on a squad but no minimum. Five shooters is not mandatory.
Section G Sub Paragraph 3
3. It is illegal for more than five (5) shooters to be in a squad.
Section G. SQUADDING, SQUAD LEADER RESPONSIBILITIES AND TARGET OBSERVATION Sub paragraph 1
c. When there are withdrawals from a squad after the competition has begun and squads scheduled.
d. When in the opinion of shoot management, the harmony of the shoot may be enhanced by squadding less than five (5) contestants.
Bob Lawless
trap4ever if this were true you would never see a squad with less than 5 shooters on it and I feel pretty sure everyone has seen short squads before. The ATA does have a maximum of 5 shooter on a squad but no minimum. Five shooters is not mandatory.
Section G Sub Paragraph 3
3. It is illegal for more than five (5) shooters to be in a squad.
Section G. SQUADDING, SQUAD LEADER RESPONSIBILITIES AND TARGET OBSERVATION Sub paragraph 1
c. When there are withdrawals from a squad after the competition has begun and squads scheduled.
d. When in the opinion of shoot management, the harmony of the shoot may be enhanced by squadding less than five (5) contestants.
Bob Lawless
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trap4ever case scenario three shooters come to classification and ask for a full squad you give them a squad they come back a short time later and put two positions back on the table.
It doesn't fill are you going to tell them they can't shoot as they don't have five shooters? If so how long do you think they will continue to bother to shoot at your club. Once again d fits,
"d. When in the opinion of shoot management, the harmony of the shoot may be enhanced by squadding less than five (5) contestants."
Next scenario Grandfather his Son and Grandson come in late to sign up for singles you don't have a squad that will accommodate them what should do split them up or give them three positions on the next squad with five positions on it. Well once again d fits.
That sub paragraph wouldn't be there if it wasn't permissible in the first place.
You can believe what you want and you can feel however you want but there are no absolutes when it comes to squadding. If a five shooter squad was mandatory there wouldn't be four exceptions to the rule.
Bob Lawless
It doesn't fill are you going to tell them they can't shoot as they don't have five shooters? If so how long do you think they will continue to bother to shoot at your club. Once again d fits,
"d. When in the opinion of shoot management, the harmony of the shoot may be enhanced by squadding less than five (5) contestants."
Next scenario Grandfather his Son and Grandson come in late to sign up for singles you don't have a squad that will accommodate them what should do split them up or give them three positions on the next squad with five positions on it. Well once again d fits.
That sub paragraph wouldn't be there if it wasn't permissible in the first place.
You can believe what you want and you can feel however you want but there are no absolutes when it comes to squadding. If a five shooter squad was mandatory there wouldn't be four exceptions to the rule.
Bob Lawless
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Trap4ever,
Looks like Bulge just phrased his question wrong. I think the question really was "How many shooters where required to hold a registered shoot in 1990-94?". He posted that V10 answered the question about registering targets during that time.
I think that the rule could be rewritten better than to imply that the squads shall have 5 shooters, with the list of exceptions. Maybe something in the line of: The maximum number of shooters on a squad shall be 5. Squadding shall be at the discretion of shoot management to promote the safety and harmony of the shoot.
Jason
Looks like Bulge just phrased his question wrong. I think the question really was "How many shooters where required to hold a registered shoot in 1990-94?". He posted that V10 answered the question about registering targets during that time.
I think that the rule could be rewritten better than to imply that the squads shall have 5 shooters, with the list of exceptions. Maybe something in the line of: The maximum number of shooters on a squad shall be 5. Squadding shall be at the discretion of shoot management to promote the safety and harmony of the shoot.
Jason
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Jason it already says that if you read the rule.
Trap if the rule was mandatory five shooters how would you handle squadding the three necessary shooter to hold a registered shoot?????
If it were mandatory five shooters why would you need this,
"except:
a. When there are less than five (5) contestants available for the last squad of any program.
b. When yardage differences in Handicap events make it impractical or unsafe.
c. When there are withdrawals from a squad after the competition has begun and squads scheduled.
d. When in the opinion of shoot management, the harmony of the shoot may be enhanced by squadding less than five (5) contestants."
AT any rate just argue with yourself as I won't any longer on this rule.
Bob Lawless
Trap if the rule was mandatory five shooters how would you handle squadding the three necessary shooter to hold a registered shoot?????
If it were mandatory five shooters why would you need this,
"except:
a. When there are less than five (5) contestants available for the last squad of any program.
b. When yardage differences in Handicap events make it impractical or unsafe.
c. When there are withdrawals from a squad after the competition has begun and squads scheduled.
d. When in the opinion of shoot management, the harmony of the shoot may be enhanced by squadding less than five (5) contestants."
AT any rate just argue with yourself as I won't any longer on this rule.
Bob Lawless
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Guys please remember, I am asking about the rules in 1990-1991-1992, not the rules today.
Waverider, I am not sure of your statement about my question. You may be right and I did not phrase it correctly. I'll try it again.
In 1990, there about, 3 men show up at a club to register birds, and only these 3 men are shooting, could they, according to ATA rules in 1990 legally have the birds registered? Other shooters non ATA shooters were shooting practice on other traps, not on the trap the ATA shooters were on.
I hope I made it clear and asked the question properly.
Bob lawless I asked you this question in a PM and you sure didn't have the answers that you are expressing now. Did you have a change of heart. Thanks, Bulge.
Waverider, I am not sure of your statement about my question. You may be right and I did not phrase it correctly. I'll try it again.
In 1990, there about, 3 men show up at a club to register birds, and only these 3 men are shooting, could they, according to ATA rules in 1990 legally have the birds registered? Other shooters non ATA shooters were shooting practice on other traps, not on the trap the ATA shooters were on.
I hope I made it clear and asked the question properly.
Bob lawless I asked you this question in a PM and you sure didn't have the answers that you are expressing now. Did you have a change of heart. Thanks, Bulge.
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Mike I answered what you asked about not what you are asking now. On Feb. 27 you asked.
"Now as I see on a post 3 men can make a squad but didn't the ATA rules once require 5 men to make a squad at a registered bird shoot?"
You asked about a squad now you are asking about how many shooters are needed to register the targets shot. If you had asked me that I would have answered as Scott has answered Three now.
To actually answer your question in the 2002 rulebook it says 5 are needed to register the targets. In the 2003 rulebook it says 3 are needed I think it is a safe bet to think that in 90-91 that it said 5 were needed. BTW those three shooters can be on 3 different squads if yardages conflict.
In all honesty I didn't realize that you were looking for the number of shooters needed to register targets. I truly thought you were looking for the number of shooters needed to make a legal squad. As in trap4ever interpretation of the rule about how many shooter to make a squad.
If you feel I was stringing you along I will with due respect ask you did I give this as a sighted rule,
"d. When in the opinion of shoot management, the harmony of the shoot may be enhanced by squadding less than five (5) contestants."
Didn't I also tell you that this section of the rule was like a cure all for the number of shooters in a squad. If so and it isn't what you wanted I never heard back from you.
If there is hard feelings between us over this I apologize as I gave the answer to the question that I thought was being asked of me.
Bob Lawless
"Now as I see on a post 3 men can make a squad but didn't the ATA rules once require 5 men to make a squad at a registered bird shoot?"
You asked about a squad now you are asking about how many shooters are needed to register the targets shot. If you had asked me that I would have answered as Scott has answered Three now.
To actually answer your question in the 2002 rulebook it says 5 are needed to register the targets. In the 2003 rulebook it says 3 are needed I think it is a safe bet to think that in 90-91 that it said 5 were needed. BTW those three shooters can be on 3 different squads if yardages conflict.
In all honesty I didn't realize that you were looking for the number of shooters needed to register targets. I truly thought you were looking for the number of shooters needed to make a legal squad. As in trap4ever interpretation of the rule about how many shooter to make a squad.
If you feel I was stringing you along I will with due respect ask you did I give this as a sighted rule,
"d. When in the opinion of shoot management, the harmony of the shoot may be enhanced by squadding less than five (5) contestants."
Didn't I also tell you that this section of the rule was like a cure all for the number of shooters in a squad. If so and it isn't what you wanted I never heard back from you.
If there is hard feelings between us over this I apologize as I gave the answer to the question that I thought was being asked of me.
Bob Lawless
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but just think how big the lewis will be Bill, and the 50's are gonna pay out like a slot machine! mark
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Bill I don't know what the events are like in that big open country where you are. Here a lot of clubs hold marathons and usually the shooters that need targets. Attend and will shoot four or five hundred to get their targets.
Some want even more that sometimes makes it difficult to come up with enough shooters to cover all the targets. I do believe if memory serves me correctly that is why it was lowered from five to three.
Bob Lawless
Some want even more that sometimes makes it difficult to come up with enough shooters to cover all the targets. I do believe if memory serves me correctly that is why it was lowered from five to three.
Bob Lawless
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