Apparently you've never read the rule book.
ATA Category Rule Question
I've seen some discussion about categories lately and I would love for someone to give me a logical explanation for the following scenario that just occurred at a state shoot singles championship I attended recently.
Champion: Shooter 1 shoots 199 Wins Champ
RU: Shooter 2 shoots 196 VT Wins RU gets $100 and a nice trophy.
Veteran: Shooter 3 shoots 197 Wins shoot off gets $75 and Trophy not as nice as RU trophy.
Shooter 4 shoots 197 Loses Shoot off gets nothing.
Why would the 197's go to category first instead of RU to shoot off? The RU was a nicer prize and was basically 2nd place under champ. A separate and seemingly a higher prize than category or class. The shooter who won RU was a declared VT category shooter and won a better prize with a lesser score. How does this make sense? I could understand if RU went to the highest score of a non category shooter, but trouble wrapping my head around this logic. BTW, none of the shooters in this scenario was me or anyone I really know. No dog in the fight, but curious about this rule.
Champion: Shooter 1 shoots 199 Wins Champ
RU: Shooter 2 shoots 196 VT Wins RU gets $100 and a nice trophy.
Veteran: Shooter 3 shoots 197 Wins shoot off gets $75 and Trophy not as nice as RU trophy.
Shooter 4 shoots 197 Loses Shoot off gets nothing.
Why would the 197's go to category first instead of RU to shoot off? The RU was a nicer prize and was basically 2nd place under champ. A separate and seemingly a higher prize than category or class. The shooter who won RU was a declared VT category shooter and won a better prize with a lesser score. How does this make sense? I could understand if RU went to the highest score of a non category shooter, but trouble wrapping my head around this logic. BTW, none of the shooters in this scenario was me or anyone I really know. No dog in the fight, but curious about this rule.
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So, even though the rule is posted in #3, you still don't get it?Apparently the 197’s chose to shoot off for Vet instead of R/U.
Once the category is declared, the shooters are REQUIRED to shoot for the category champion and R/U, except for if they are event champion or tied, they don't choose anything, that's the very reason for the rule.
What % of the posters here do you believe have and not just a specific rule prior to responding to/replying to a question presented?Apparently you've never read the rule book.
Just off the top of my head I'd guess it is in excess of 80%.What % of the posters here do you believe have and not just a specific rule prior to responding to/replying to a question presented?
In other words, a great majority of the people have no idea what the real rules are.
There are what 35,000 ATA shooters? We have 80,000 members here. I am sure not all of them shoot trap, registered or non registered, but some post on ATA issues anyway.
Here is my takeaway as the guy who asked the original question. Per V10, a category champion is a champion and gets the all American points and champ of champs invitation at the grand etc... This is therefore supposed to be considered a more prestigious win over RU even though you may have only beaten 5 people in your category. RU is considered a "place" trophy(which is not really intuitive even by reading the rule book for especially for singles and doubles) carries a bigger payout and nicer trophy and represents finishing 2nd to potentially a few hundred other shooters. It can be won by shooting a lesser score than a category win score. It can also be won by a category shooter who did not shoot well enough to win their category. Wow, we are supposed understand all this from those 3 little paragraphs in the rule book. Understand it now. Don't buy it as being right or fair, but understand it.
The rules were changed to what they are now to stop the bs games that were being played after events were over. Shooters would get together with their buddies and figure out what class or category they were going to shoot off in either to help a buddy win a trophy, stop another shooter from being able to shoot for a trophy, etc. Shoot offs were taking forever waiting for people to make up their minds of what they wanted to shoot off for or against whom. If you don’t like it like it is now either shoot open and quit bitching or get with your delegate and get them to vote for a change. Shoot offs take long enough now. They used to take longer. Much longer.
Everyone, keep in mind that this rule is only required to apply if ATA trophies are being awarded (unless the rule changed this year). Your regular weekend shooting clubs may decide not to apply this rule.
Excellent.The rules were changed to what they are now to stop the bs games that were being played after events were over. Shooters would get together with their buddies and figure out what class or category they were going to shoot off in either to help a buddy win a trophy, stop another shooter from being able to shoot for a trophy, etc. Shoot offs were taking forever waiting for people to make up their minds of what they wanted to shoot off for or against whom. If you don’t like it like it is now either shoot open and quit bitching or get with your delegate and get them to vote for a change. Shoot offs take long enough now. They used to take longer. Much longer.
I figure they'd have to add another week worth of shootoffs at the Grand if not for the current declaration rule.
Happened to me last weekend. High with a 197 in B-class singles, BUT tied for Sr. vet r/u. Rules required me to shoot off in category. Lost the shoot off and couldn't fall back to class so a B-class 196 took the class trophy. I got nothing. The rules were followed. Cuts down on shoot offs and behind the scenes BS.
Yes only at shoots where ATA provides the trophies AND/OR All American points are givenEveryone, keep in mind that this rule is only required to apply if ATA trophies are being awarded (unless the rule changed this year). Your regular weekend shooting clubs may decide not to apply this rule.
V , I guess you could post it again ans again but some people just don't get it. RU is a place trophy which means second "Place" . In cases of a shoot that the ATA provides trophies and/or All American points are given , If you tie for a category , The Champion trophy is the only other trophy you can shoot off for. You can NOT shoot off for RU if you tied for category .
I don’t think they had a choice.
Sorry, apparently I was replying to a much older post.
If you remember the "cattle calls" for shootoffs at the Grand or other big shoots, part of it was dragged out by the expansion of categories and the allowance of shoot and continue to fall back to categories or class/yardage. In some cases it could be even worse for states that had resident and open trophies instead of resident and non-resident trophies.Excellent.
I figure they'd have to add another week worth of shootoffs at the Grand if not for the current declaration rule.
You could make this a little easier and tell us what State Shoot it was so we could look at the results.
That said, it looks like the Vet with 196 did not qualify for a trophy in his category and therefore could shoot for a place trophy, e.g. RU.
If there were three trophies in Vet, Vet Champion, Vet RU, and Vet 3rd, and there were two 197s and a 196, then the Vet 196 would have gotten the Vet third place trophy.
As it is, it looks like there were two Vet trophies, Champ and RU, (or just one Vet trophy, Champion, it works out the same way) so the two 197s vie for those and with no trophy in his category the 196 is free to compete/win a place trophy.
There really is no substitute for reading the rule book.
Come on Scott....
Reading the rule book takes time and you MUST be able to have some level of comprehension. Its SO much easier to throw this stuff out there and get the 'arm chair quarterback's' opinions!
Speaking reading Dan, why don't you read and comprehend the original question. I asked what was the logic or basis behind the rules that created the scenario I described. I also reiterated that in a second post after I was repeatedly told to go read the rule book. I stated as an opinion a couple times that I personally don't care for the outcome of the rules in the scenario I described. SteveT finally posted the answer I was looking for by stating the current rules for category were put in place to reduce shoot offs. Could have done without being accused of bitching but, all I was looking for was the WHY not WHAT the rules are. BTW, I thought this was a "discussion" website where you go to get the thoughts, opinions and ask questions of others.Come on Scott....
Reading the rule book takes time and you MUST be able to have some level of comprehension. Its SO much easier to throw this stuff out there and get the 'arm chair quarterback's' opinions!
You don’t get to choose what you shoot off for anymore. It’s champion, then any category you declared. Read above. They had to shoot for vet. The 196 then gets RU because they didn’t qualify for VT champ shootoff.Apparently the 197’s chose to shoot off for Vet instead of R/U.
To be clear, ". . . because they didn't qualify for VT champ shoot off" is not accurate.You don’t get to choose what you shoot off for anymore. It’s champion, then any category you declared. Read above. They had to shoot for vet. The 196 then gets RU because they didn’t qualify for VT champ shootoff.
The Vet with 196 could shoot for a place trophy because he did not qualify for a trophy in his category.
In this instance, if there had been a Vet 3rd Place trophy he would have gotten that and not been eligible to take/shoot off for a place or class trophy.
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