I have to believe that you erroneously included VT in this statement and the 196 shooter was NOT a category shooter. If that is the case, the Runner Up was decided correctly.RU: Shooter 2 shoots 196 VT Wins RU gets $100 and a nice trophy.
You could make this a little easier and tell us what State Shoot it was so we could look at the results.I've seen some discussion about categories lately and I would love for someone to give me a logical explanation for the following scenario that just occurred at a state shoot singles championship I attended recently.
Champion: Shooter 1 shoots 199 Wins Champ
RU: Shooter 2 shoots 196 VT Wins RU gets $100 and a nice trophy.
Veteran: Shooter 3 shoots 197 Wins shoot off gets $75 and Trophy not as nice as RU trophy.
Shooter 4 shoots 197 Loses Shoot off gets nothing.
Why would the 197's go to category first instead of RU to shoot off? The RU was a nicer prize and was basically 2nd place under champ. A separate and seemingly a higher prize than category or class. The shooter who won RU was a declared VT category shooter and won a better prize with a lesser score. How does this make sense? I could understand if RU went to the highest score of a non category shooter, but trouble wrapping my head around this logic. BTW, none of the shooters in this scenario was me or anyone I really know. No dog in the fight, but curious about this rule.
You’re correct. It does not make sense. There should be a provision for place, such as in a handicap or championship singles or doubles where 2nd, 3rd, etc. are treated the same as champ. I agree with application for class. But this creates weird scenarios.It was the SC state shoot. My point was not to question whether or not it is a rule in the rule book or not. But trying to understand how does the rule make sense that RU in a championship is regarded as a lesser place than a category win. Obviously the rule makes sense to the rules committee. Was trying to find out what I was missing as the basis for this rule. Seems unfair to the guys who shot a higher score, but just an opinion.
Because it is.But trying to understand how does the rule make sense that RU in a championship is regarded as a lesser place than a category win.
And even that can sometimes bite you in the butt. A few years ago in the President's Handicap at the Grand, I miraculously shot a 98! I had decided to NOT declare category that year, owing to the more place trophies in handicap events. I did well enough in the shootoff to place 4th in the event and win a very nice extra large belt buckle. However, had I declared as a Vet, I would have won the Champion Trophy outright (winner had a 97). I think the Category Champion Trophy would have looked better on the shelf! 😣 You take your chances....Most shooters I know that declare category are doing it for AA points, not trophies. Especially for a shoot such as the Grand, I’d never declare category unless I wanted points. Much rather have a runner up or place trophy in the open class.
You could make this a little easier and tell us what State Shoot it was so we could look at the results.
That said, it looks like the Vet with 196 did not qualify for a trophy in his category and therefore could shoot for a place trophy, e.g. RU.
If there were three trophies in Vet, Vet Champion, Vet RU, and Vet 3rd, and there were two 197s and a 196, then the Vet 196 would have gotten the Vet third place trophy.
As it is, it looks like there were two Vet trophies, Champ and RU, (or just one Vet trophy, Champion, it works out the same way) so the two 197s vie for those and with no trophy in his category the 196 is free to compete/win a place trophy.
There really is no substitute for reading the rule book.
You could make this a little easier and tell us what State Shoot it was so we could look at the results.
That said, it looks like the Vet with 196 did not qualify for a trophy in his category and therefore could shoot for a place trophy, e.g. RU.
If there were three trophies in Vet, Vet Champion, Vet RU, and Vet 3rd, and there were two 197s and a 196, then the Vet 196 would have gotten the Vet third place trophy.
As it is, it looks like there were two Vet trophies, Champ and RU, (or just one Vet trophy, Champion, it works out the same way) so the two 197s vie for those and with no trophy in his category the 196 is free to compete/win a place trophy.
There really is no substitute for reading the rule book.
You could make this a little easier and tell us what State Shoot it was so we could look at the results.
That said, it looks like the Vet with 196 did not qualify for a trophy in his category and therefore could shoot for a place trophy, e.g. RU.
If there were three trophies in Vet, Vet Champion, Vet RU, and Vet 3rd, and there were two 197s and a 196, then the Vet 196 would have gotten the Vet third place trophy.
As it is, it looks like there were two Vet trophies, Champ and RU, (or just one Vet trophy, Champion, it works out the same way) so the two 197s vie for those and with no trophy in his category the 196 is free to compete/win a place trophy.
There really is no substitute for reading the rule book.
You could make this a little easier and tell us what State Shoot it was so we could look at the results.
That said, it looks like the Vet with 196 did not qualify for a trophy in his category and therefore could shoot for a place trophy, e.g. RU.
If there were three trophies in Vet, Vet Champion, Vet RU, and Vet 3rd, and there were two 197s and a 196, then the Vet 196 would have gotten the Vet third place trophy.
As it is, it looks like there were two Vet trophies, Champ and RU, (or just one Vet trophy, Champion, it works out the same way) so the two 197s vie for those and with no trophy in his category the 196 is free to compete/win a place trophy.
There really is no substitute for reading the rule book.
ok, understand your explanation that a category champion is in fact a champion and is recognized for all American points etc.. Makes sense. That does clarify my original question. The higher level payout and trophy at these state shoots does however create the perception the RU is in fact the more prestigious win. Quite confusing for people who see the scenario I described above for the first time. Probably why you have to address this question every year as you mentioned. Not as simple as just go read the rule book to piece together how this works.Because it is.
The Category champions are champions. The "runner up" isn't.
Evidence of this is the fact that the "Champion of Champions" event at the Grand consists of Open and Category winners, not class or place winners. Exception being that if the Champion (Open or Special Category) cannot attend the Grand then the RU can shoot in the Champion's place.
Likewise, the All American teams consist of Open and Special Category shooters; a shooter's class is immaterial.
About 10 years ago there was a proposal to create an exception for RU. As I recall it didn't even get to a vote at the BOD meeting. No one was in favor of it.
But, contact your Delegate. Have them raise the question at the BOD meeting. Maybe you'll get lucky.
I've maintained for years that this happens, but we never hear about it. All we ever hear of is "I coulda won my class but I wasn't allowed to because of this stupid rule."And even that can sometimes bite you in the butt. A few years ago in the President's Handicap at the Grand, I miraculously shot a 98! I had decided to NOT declare category that year, owing to the more place trophies in handicap events. I did well enough in the shootoff to place 4th in the event and win a very nice extra large belt buckle. However, had I declared as a Vet, I would have won the Champion Trophy outright (winner had a 97). I think the Category Champion Trophy would have looked better on the shelf! 😣 You take your chances....
Scott Hanes
That's a shoot management problem.The higher level payout and trophy at these state shoots does however create the perception the RU is in fact the more prestigious win.
It’s a two edged sword! A person just has to make the choice and live with the results if he shoots a great score.And even that can sometimes bite you in the butt. A few years ago in the President's Handicap at the Grand, I miraculously shot a 98! I had decided to NOT declare category that year, owing to the more place trophies in handicap events. I did well enough in the shootoff to place 4th in the event and win a very nice extra large belt buckle. However, had I declared as a Vet, I would have won the Champion Trophy outright (winner had a 97). I think the Category Champion Trophy would have looked better on the shelf! 😣 You take your chances....
Scott Hanes
