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Dednlost, I did "serious" patterning and chronographing on 1 1/8oz Windjammers, DRM Windjammer clones and Spolar Gold vs. the Rem Fig-8. I wanted to test Windjammers reputation for faster opening patterns and Spolars claim to 10% more velocity from the same load.
If you believe you can make a good evaluation by comparing averages of 10 or 20 pattern groups, I'll tell you not to worry about it. For all practical purposes they are the same.
My standard 1 1/8oz load for a long time was STS hull, W209 primer, 19.1gr Green Dot, Fig-8 wad, 1 1/8oz hard shot. It patterns very well and consistently gives me SDs in the 7-8 range. I used the same load for each of these four wads, except the bushing was throwing 19.3gr of Green Dot instead of 19.1gr.
When I ran these across the chono I found the Windjammers a little slower than the Spolar and slower than the Fig-8. I found the Spolar Gold to return 8fps LESS than the Fig-8, so their claim and premium price are bogus. BTW, all returned good SDs. Noting was higher than 11.
As far as patterns are concerned, maybe, just maybe the Windjammers open up a little more at 34 yards. They are all even and effective.
I keep my DRM Windjammer clones and my Fig-8 wads on the same shelf. I have about 2000 left of each. How do I choose between them? Whichever one my hand grasps first is what goes into the shell. So when I tell you there is not a gnat's whisker of difference between them in performance, I mean it.
The DRM Windjammers are a little cheaper and lighter than the Fig-8s. There is a little less recoil because of the lower wad weight and the lower velocity. I usually buy Fig-8s out of habit. If all I could get were Windjammers, it wouldn't faze me a bit.
If you believe you can make a good evaluation by comparing averages of 10 or 20 pattern groups, I'll tell you not to worry about it. For all practical purposes they are the same.
My standard 1 1/8oz load for a long time was STS hull, W209 primer, 19.1gr Green Dot, Fig-8 wad, 1 1/8oz hard shot. It patterns very well and consistently gives me SDs in the 7-8 range. I used the same load for each of these four wads, except the bushing was throwing 19.3gr of Green Dot instead of 19.1gr.
When I ran these across the chono I found the Windjammers a little slower than the Spolar and slower than the Fig-8. I found the Spolar Gold to return 8fps LESS than the Fig-8, so their claim and premium price are bogus. BTW, all returned good SDs. Noting was higher than 11.
As far as patterns are concerned, maybe, just maybe the Windjammers open up a little more at 34 yards. They are all even and effective.
I keep my DRM Windjammer clones and my Fig-8 wads on the same shelf. I have about 2000 left of each. How do I choose between them? Whichever one my hand grasps first is what goes into the shell. So when I tell you there is not a gnat's whisker of difference between them in performance, I mean it.
The DRM Windjammers are a little cheaper and lighter than the Fig-8s. There is a little less recoil because of the lower wad weight and the lower velocity. I usually buy Fig-8s out of habit. If all I could get were Windjammers, it wouldn't faze me a bit.
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Thanks for the data, zzt. You've saved me some time, though I'd kinda guessed at the outcome. Nice work.
Neil
Neil
The answer, John, is they are the same as Remington's Figure-8 wad in performance. Remington uses the Fig-8 wad in their STS target load (used by many for singles) and their handicap load (presumably used for handicap), so if the two wads are equivalent, the Windjammer is suitable for singles and handicap. Does that spell it out clearly enough for you?
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zzt, I don't think that the Fig.-8 wad is used in the Remington Handicap shell; it's the TGT-12 (that's the green one, right?)
But it makes no difference, since as your testing indicates, when you look hard, as you have done, for differences in pattern performance between wads - no matter what the claim, cost, or TS.com reputation - those differences are hard to find in ten or twenty patterns and that's all anyone is likely to do - if they do even one.
Neil
But it makes no difference, since as your testing indicates, when you look hard, as you have done, for differences in pattern performance between wads - no matter what the claim, cost, or TS.com reputation - those differences are hard to find in ten or twenty patterns and that's all anyone is likely to do - if they do even one.
Neil
Ajax, for the most part I agree with you, but I've found several notable exceptions.
When I resumed shotgunning 7 years or so ago, I also resumed reloading. I bought all the manuals and every exotic wad I could lay my hands on. I was determined loads for all distances so I could use my fixed choke Beretta O/U for sporting clays. I did find you could develop loads using different wads, etc. for just about any range you wanted to cover. I could get my IC/M chokes to throw patterns from 40% to 75% just by switching loads. You know what, the logistics of carrying that many different loads around the sporting field was a pain. It was much easier to change chokes rather than shells, so I eventually bought a 20b with interchangeable chokes. Now I'm too lazy to change chokes. I use the same two choke tubes and 7/8oz #8 for everything on the courses.
Back when I restarted I was really "scientific" about testing. I weighed the powder charges and counted all the pellets I put into each shell I patterned. I made a compass that would allow me to draw 10.6", 15", 21.2" and 30" circles on the patterns. I hand counted and dotted each pellet hole. Geez, I even bought clear Fiocchi hulls so I could see what happened to the wad when it was loaded.
I found some real losers. The Gualandi Piston Skeet was one. Another was the Baschiere & Pellagri T2 wad, the one sometimes called the 078 Lightning. I never had good luck with the WAA12L and WAA12SL wads either. Very uneven patterns.
IMO, the best wad in the world is the Baschiere & Pellagri Z series in the correct height for your load. You'll have to use GM or straight walled hulls, though. The Gualandi Spark is a superb 24g-1oz wad for straight walled hulls. If I'm ever stupid enough to again want to shoot 24g loads at 1400+fps, I'll use Gualandi Rex wads. I haven't bought any of the European wads for some time, just because of the expense.
During these 7 years I've owned a Beretta BL-3 O/u, a Browning Superposed, and Beretta Gold E trap combo, an MX-15 with Wilkinson barrel, and MX-2000 combo with unmodified barrels and an MX-2000RS combo that I had Allor work on. The only wads that always delivered the goods in all of these guns/barrels were the Federal 12S series, the Remington TGT-12 and Fig-8 and the Windjammer. So that is what I now stick with. If I can't do it with those Federal wads in Gold Medal hulls, or the others in STS hulls, it just isn't worth doing.
I still have dozens of other wads around, but foe the most part I use the 12S0 in the STS hull for 24g loads at 1220fps or less, and in the Gold Medal hull for faster speeds. I use the TGT-12 in STS hulls for 1oz and the Fig-8 for 1 1/8oz. Life is simpler that way.
When I resumed shotgunning 7 years or so ago, I also resumed reloading. I bought all the manuals and every exotic wad I could lay my hands on. I was determined loads for all distances so I could use my fixed choke Beretta O/U for sporting clays. I did find you could develop loads using different wads, etc. for just about any range you wanted to cover. I could get my IC/M chokes to throw patterns from 40% to 75% just by switching loads. You know what, the logistics of carrying that many different loads around the sporting field was a pain. It was much easier to change chokes rather than shells, so I eventually bought a 20b with interchangeable chokes. Now I'm too lazy to change chokes. I use the same two choke tubes and 7/8oz #8 for everything on the courses.
Back when I restarted I was really "scientific" about testing. I weighed the powder charges and counted all the pellets I put into each shell I patterned. I made a compass that would allow me to draw 10.6", 15", 21.2" and 30" circles on the patterns. I hand counted and dotted each pellet hole. Geez, I even bought clear Fiocchi hulls so I could see what happened to the wad when it was loaded.
I found some real losers. The Gualandi Piston Skeet was one. Another was the Baschiere & Pellagri T2 wad, the one sometimes called the 078 Lightning. I never had good luck with the WAA12L and WAA12SL wads either. Very uneven patterns.
IMO, the best wad in the world is the Baschiere & Pellagri Z series in the correct height for your load. You'll have to use GM or straight walled hulls, though. The Gualandi Spark is a superb 24g-1oz wad for straight walled hulls. If I'm ever stupid enough to again want to shoot 24g loads at 1400+fps, I'll use Gualandi Rex wads. I haven't bought any of the European wads for some time, just because of the expense.
During these 7 years I've owned a Beretta BL-3 O/u, a Browning Superposed, and Beretta Gold E trap combo, an MX-15 with Wilkinson barrel, and MX-2000 combo with unmodified barrels and an MX-2000RS combo that I had Allor work on. The only wads that always delivered the goods in all of these guns/barrels were the Federal 12S series, the Remington TGT-12 and Fig-8 and the Windjammer. So that is what I now stick with. If I can't do it with those Federal wads in Gold Medal hulls, or the others in STS hulls, it just isn't worth doing.
I still have dozens of other wads around, but foe the most part I use the 12S0 in the STS hull for 24g loads at 1220fps or less, and in the Gold Medal hull for faster speeds. I use the TGT-12 in STS hulls for 1oz and the Fig-8 for 1 1/8oz. Life is simpler that way.
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There are Windjammers and then there are Windjammers. I had some that were dismal and some that were about as good as anything else out there. I got a bad batch several years ago that were retired to the junk heap. Had the same luck with some of the Dusters a few years ago. The problem was poor material. I just don't like to load an 8 petal wad, since they are a pain on my Mecs. Other than that, there isn't too much to choose at normal trap ranges and speeds.
I've had some dismal results with some wads and decent results with others. I tend to use the Federal 12S3, 12S0, and clones a lot. The Remington Fig 8 and the TGT12 are on the good list. I also get good results from some of the Winchester wads in some loads, provided I don't push the velocities too high. The Downrange "Red Versalite" has been a reunion for me, since I used them years ago when they were under the Pacific/Hornady brands.
To answer the original question....If you are using a QUALITY Windjammer like the originals or the Downrange versions, you should be fine for 16's, Doubles, or Handicaps (even Skeet). They work well in the STS/Rem hulls with Red Dot or Promo.
I've had some dismal results with some wads and decent results with others. I tend to use the Federal 12S3, 12S0, and clones a lot. The Remington Fig 8 and the TGT12 are on the good list. I also get good results from some of the Winchester wads in some loads, provided I don't push the velocities too high. The Downrange "Red Versalite" has been a reunion for me, since I used them years ago when they were under the Pacific/Hornady brands.
To answer the original question....If you are using a QUALITY Windjammer like the originals or the Downrange versions, you should be fine for 16's, Doubles, or Handicaps (even Skeet). They work well in the STS/Rem hulls with Red Dot or Promo.
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Eddie, it's only 93 miles from Mt. Gilead Camp in Stroudsburg to Berwyn, so I figured he could pronounce it.
Neil
Neil
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Last year I did a 8000 round test with many wads.. All 24 gram.. all 19.6 Promo Approx 8650 PSI 1330 FPS.. Kevin tested the shells for me.. What I found out is the current Windjammer.. like the DRXL-1 Jammer and the CB4100 are all good mid range wads.. They patterned well.. until you got to long distances.. then the XXL and 12S0 were the King..
If I were loading 1 1/8oz.. I'd use the DR Versalite or the XL 1 1/8 and believe it or not.. the Nobel wad performed excellent in those test too. which were at extended ranges.. In the 35 yard class.. most everything out there does OK.. some better than others..but not by much.. Stretch that to 55/65 yards..and you really start to see who is King..
Remember.. as the yards get longer.. hard shot gets to be a must... Also..As you go beyond 1300 fps.. wad construction starts to make a difference.. at 1350 fps.. it becomes a issue.. and at 1400.. a real issue..
If I were loading 1 1/8oz.. I'd use the DR Versalite or the XL 1 1/8 and believe it or not.. the Nobel wad performed excellent in those test too. which were at extended ranges.. In the 35 yard class.. most everything out there does OK.. some better than others..but not by much.. Stretch that to 55/65 yards..and you really start to see who is King..
Remember.. as the yards get longer.. hard shot gets to be a must... Also..As you go beyond 1300 fps.. wad construction starts to make a difference.. at 1350 fps.. it becomes a issue.. and at 1400.. a real issue..
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Dead. Yah-ah. I ama rookie at reloading compared to you guys htat have been doing it seriously. My current tack is to teadch my SIL to make the majority of these practice and league bullets and I'll fool with the hcp for myself. I do not have the time to learn what zzt knows and likely I'll be smarter buy just emulating his results in my loads. Good stuff ZZ. I really did learn alot and it only took me about 5 minutes.
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