[Neil Winston]

Bill, I've been to the bowling congress website you sent us to and found it interesting in several respects. But I noticed you contributed to the withering "Classification" thread and since you are a bowling delegate, you might know the answers to a couple of my bowling questions, in the context of that classification thread. I do not bowl nor will I, as far as I know, so consider the following entirely hypothetical.

1) Does the kind of bowling you do allow, in the organized way the ATA, "options" or their equivalent? Calcuttas?

2) Are there cash prizes?

3) And here the main one. Say I were a bowler and saw the State Championship was being held down the street. I'm not a member of course but thought I'd go, join, and compete. I suppose you have classes, so what class would I be in?

Just curious how other organizations handle that situation, that's all. What do the bowlers do and how do think it's working?

Neil

 

[chessney]

What does bowling and shooting have to do with each other?...

Ziggy

 

[Neil Winston]

What they have in common I think, Ziggy, is that they have to deal with new members and decide against whom - or at what level - they should compete. It's not that bowling and trap are the same, just that they fact that they confront the same kind of problem.

The $ questions is also interesting, since there are at least two schools of thought on that in trap and maybe bowling as well.

What I forgot to ask Bill was whether "sandbagging" occurs in bowling and if so, how much a "problem" is it?

Neil

 

[Big Heap]

A comparison of the two, trap and bowling, should also consider the Pro Bowler's Assn. This PBA organization had gone broke and is now conducted as a privately funded activity by some people who are Microsoft millionaires.

 

[miketmx]

Another parallel between ATA trapshooting and Tournament bowling should be enticing the experienced "League" shooter to give registered ATA shooting a try. League trapshooting is pretty much grass roots trapshooting and when an experienced league shooter tries ATA for the first time the classification and handicap yardage is a different ball game than the newbie shooter who does not have league experience. There has been discussion about keeping the newbie shooter coming back instead of dropping out but what about rules that would entice a league shooter to give ATA a try?? It is a shame that the Money and Sandbagging aspect of tournament shooting or bowling distort the comraderie and fun aspect.

 

[870]

Miketmx:

I don't follow this: "League trapshooting is pretty much grass roots trapshooting and when an experienced league shooter tries ATA for the first time the classification and handicap yardage is a different ball game than the newbie shooter who does not have league experience"?

 

[miketmx]

I was expressing my thoughts on two completely separate topics. One topic league trapshooting seems very popular in some locations and how come League shooters do not want to try ATA shooting??

The other topic of my rambling random thought was about the classification thread; If someone is an experienced league shooter at his first ATA shoot, he should get a different classification than an inexperienced true newbie.

 

[870]

Thanks Mike. Just to clarify though, your league shooter MIGHT get classified differently than a newbie under known ability, but in caps they would be the same.

 

[BAMA]

Neil,

There are 2 types of Tournaments, Handicap and Scratch. All professional tournaments are scratch, what you bowl is what you score. Most non proffessional tournaments like city, state or the Nationals are based on Handicap. Handicaps are established in sanctioned league bowling most of the time. It is based on your average over 20 games and continues to adjust through the season but your average is only established for the league you bowl on. Let's say you bowl on 2 or more leagues as many people do. You average or handicap for a tournament will be based on the highest average you carry in all leagues.
Most tournaments have prize money plus there are side pots going on such as brackets...this is where the real money is.
To answer your question about a new bowler wanting to bowl in a tournament. Without an established handicap, he will have to bowl scratch.
If you have any other questions just email me. I was in the bowling business for several years running bowling centers for AMF Corp.

Bama

 

[Neil Winston]

Thanks, Bama. That's what I wondered about. From the look of it, the ATA is ahead of bowling in terms of giving a break to new competitors.

Neil

 

[W.P.T.]

Neil,

I'll take it you were seriously asking the question because you really want to know, or your trying to bust chops ...

The way Bama laid it out is pretty much the way it is and as in any sport there are those that are considered to be "Sand bagging", but they are found out and sorted out really fast being as the running averages change every week ... The side pots can and usually include high individual game(s) and or high series or both ... It can also be for "Team, Singles, Doubles, and Over all, Handicap or Scratch" event's at some tournaments also so you can get in any or all of them ... The USBC says it takes 21 games to establish a "book" average which might or might be your starting point the following year depending on the rules of the Individual Leagues, which all have separate ByLaws that they play by as guidelines ... If anything should not be addressed by the Leagues BY Laws or Rule variations that are voted on, the USBC rules prevail and are final ... The Team Captains in each League are the Board of Directors for that League and anything that comes up gets settled right then and there by the League Officers calling a meeting on the spot ... The Handicap Leagues are good practice for the better bowlers because if you or one of your team mates don't make your average, you probably lose points ... There is also the possibilty of the team with the Higher Handicap bowling over their averages and then you don't stand much of a chance ... The bowler who is in the middle (185-200) is usually the bowler who can hurt you the most because most low average bowlers are just that and bowl lower scores, high average bowlers can't make any mistakes because their average is high enough to hurt them if they make any mistakes and the bowlers in the middle can bowl over average a lot of times ... There are also Leagues that established Bowlers choose not bowl in because its full of new or novice bowlers (but they could) and there just isn't much sense of accomplishment in beating them ... They also have Novice Leagues which is self explainitory ... They can run all of the same options if they choose to do so and usually do which gives them a lift when they win ...

I also bowl on the Amateur Bowling Tour (ABT) and they have classifications based on averages and each one bowls for their own money, and the guys with PBA cards bowl in their own division, as well as Seniors ... There is another independant tour called the "Strike Force Tour" that separate the Pros (PBA card carriers), from the high average bowlers, and then the lower, and still lower yet average bowlers ...

Last year over 70,000,000 people went bowling ... It don't take all day to get your games in unless its a really big tournament with a lot of qualifying games, you are notified if you make the finals and have to come back tomorrow to bowl or as an alternate ... The rain don't matter, its climate controlled, and those that choose to can have a beer if its to their liking, though most don't when bowling in Tournaments until its all over ... Most tournaments have a dress code, and swearing is not allowed though it does happen, and is accepted as long as the spectators don't hear it and if anyone asks for your autograph you give it to them and address them as "Sir and Ma'am"... When the pins get replaced we take the old ones out and shoot at them with shotguns, pistols, rifles, and anything else you can imagine ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

P.S.
I bowl on Mon.night, Tues.night, Weds.night, Thurs.night, Fri.night and Sunday night ... Sometimes I practice on Saturday or bowl "NO TAP" on Saturday evening with my wife just for fun ...

 

[smartass]

I'd rather take a bullet to the head than bowl, but I found that quite interesting.

 

[ivanhoe]

Neil just a point of interest in tournament Archery(AKA Field Archery something I am not to sure that there is much of anymore)a few years back the Newbee/Novice didn't fair much better. At their first shoot they were placed in the Open class which was the top class at that time. Now you understand that I have not shot a Archery tournament since 1987. So things may have changed a little now.

I just thought it might help I also Shot Bullseye Pistol but I can't remember where you were placed as a Newbee but I am willing to bet it would not be in the shooters favor until they establish a class.

Bob Lawless

 

[W.P.T.]

Anonymous,

I used to feel that way also until my brother called me one day and asked if I wanted to go bowling ... We won't rent shoes so we went off to the local Pro Shop and bought bowling shoes, and while there got a ball and bag also ... I figured it was a good way to get some exercise and stay slim and trim but I guess you have to start out that way to stay that way ... I'm 6'5 and as of last Tuesday 322# but I'm determined to lose some weight before spring, not sure which year though ... A bullet to the head might not hurt as much as you think, if put in the right spot you won't even see the flash or hear it go off but drop a bowling ball on your foot and you will definately feel it ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

[Neil Winston]

I was completely serious, Bill. Thanks for the info. Now what does "exempted" mean? Then I'll quit.

Neil

 

[smartass]

WPT, I was exaggerating some- I really do like to bowl a few frames every few years. It might not be the greatest exercise, but it does beat trapshooting in that department. I might like it more if I weren't so bad at it

I was serious too. I really did find the info about competitive bowling interesting.

 

[W.P.T.]

Neil,

The PBA Card carrying Pros have to bowl in qualifying rounds and make a final to get an exemption for a certain period of time to compete ... Depending on the nature of the Tournament (The US Open) they can get an exemption for up to 3 years ... This exemption lets them walk in and buy into the tournament but they still have to quailify by sake of their overall average in the qualifying rounds ... The top 4 or 5 make it onto ESPN on Sunday morning for the Championship Trophy and the $25,000 or more depending on the tournament ... The U.S. Open winner gets $100,000 and a 3 year exemption ... WPT ... (YAC ...

 

[Neil Winston]

I get it. Thanks. The "exemption" is from having to bowl in qualification events, right? It's a pass to the main event?

Neil

 

[cueguy2]

There was a question on league shooters. I have shot leagues for many years, more than I will admit to. One club in particular had over 30, 5 man teams 4 nights a week. Out of all those shooters, maybe 5 shot registered and then only the minimum targets necessary for the state shoot. Almost all of those league shooters only wanted the one night away from the wife and kids. Not sure how much the beer and cards had to do with it either. They had absolutely no interest in spending an entire day shooting targets. They knew what the ATA was, just no interest. The other club I shot at did not have as much league shooting, but the only ATA shooters were on my team. League shooting in that area anyway, does not lead to registered shooting. Nubs Wagner.

 

[W.P.T.]

Nubs,

I have talked to a lot of shooters and been told that the desire to compete remains strong but the amount of money is getting way out of line for many shooters to continue on the level they would like to or have in the past ... Personally, I just don't have the time to sit around all day to get in 200 targets, but visiting with some old friends is nice from time to time ... WPT ... (YAC) ...