jamie, I start newbies on 7/8 oz of 9s and usually have them try a few 27 yard shots to see the difference that a few yards make in visibility etc. I've seen several of those shots break 27 yard birds but I certainly wouldn't recommend the practice. I have shot practice with a buddy, just pacing him, twice when all I had was 7/8 oz of 9s designed for skeet birds. Both times I broke 24s from 25 yards but, again, I'd never consider doing that routinely. Then, I watched a skilled shooter firing from at least 30 yards in the '70s with a .410 pump gun and firing .410 caliber shotshells designed for skeet, #12s I think, all shot from the post 3 position, and he broke 18 birds of 25. Can they break long targets? Yes. Recommend it? Uh Uh!...breakemall....Bob Dodd
Ya know in international trap all your allowed is 7/8oz of shot and the targets are thicker/harder, 2mm smaller, fly much faster, fly at drasticly wider angles and elevations and ya know what?
Birds are broken all the time on international trap and at times 25 straight are broken with 7/8oz loads of 7.5 shot. Regular trap should be no problem at all, even for a beginer on his first round and a seasoned veteran shouldn't even realize a difference unless he lets it mentally kick his tail.
jamie, here is a repeat of info I posted the last time this came around.
The statistics may surprise a few of you. Using standard #8 shot and a barrel that shoots 80% patterns into a 30" circle @40yds, the diameter of the pattern that will guarantee a 95% probability of at lease a one pellet hit on a 6 sq " target is as follows:
7/8oz - 17"; 1oz - 19"; 1 1/8oz - 20.8"
Remember, a 95% probability means you will not hit the bird at_all 5% of the time.
The diameter of the pattern that guarantees you a 100% chance of at least a one pellet strike is as follows:
7/8oz - 0"; 1oz - 5.2"; 1 1/8oz - 9.6"
Makes you wonder, doesn't it.
So there you have it. If you are just shooting for fun, have at it. If you care about your average, use 1oz or preferably 1 1/8oz.
BTW, full size 8s @ 1200fps will break all legal ATA targets, all the time, except possibly cold, damp or frozen bio targets in the winter/early spring. So I really don't understand the need for speed often espoused here. There is zero need to go to 1300fps or higher.
Here is some more data:
8s launched @1200fps arrive at a 40 yard target in .1482 seconds with .64 ft/lbs remaining energy. Launched @1300fps TOF is .1403 seconds with .73 ft/lbs. So, if your brain tells you that just under 8 thousandths of a second of flight time and 9 hundredths of a ft/lb of energy makes a difference in bird breaking ability at 40 yards, then it does and you should use faster loads. If you look at it objectively, it's BS. I really believe most who say they like faster loads respond to the more direct boom/break experience. It is satisfying, but you feel it more and it costs more to load fast shells.
zzt ... that all sounds like technical mumbo jumbo that could really impress some bar babe into wanting to take you outside and ... well ... once outside she's locking the door to get rid of you ... but overall why not just say that they will break em if ya hit em.
Bring them all ... the only difference you will see, if your a good shooter will be the difference you think there is in your head. Shoot them like you would any other shell and don't even consider them any different at all.
zzt ... that all sounds like technical mumbo jumbo that could really impress some bar babe into wanting to take you outside and ... well ... once outside she's locking the door to get rid of you ... but overall why not just say that they will break em if ya hit em.</Q>
I'll do it for you. Yes, if you hit them with 7/8 oz, you will break them.
And, I hope more and more choose to shoot 7/8 oz at handicap. I'll continue to use my 1 1/8....just..because.
My test patterns on the splatter board w/ 1oz loads mirrored zzt's summary. Shot at 40 yards, the "Holes" can't be ignored. Full.035 choke, 40 yards,P-gun, 5/2/05, w/ multiple loads. Lots and lots of loads.
The law of probability may be negatively influenced by the shooters inability to handle the recoil of the larger payload. Simply stated, if the shooter jerks the muzzle from recoil fear of the heavier charge-all bets are off!!
Holes in your pattern on a 'board' are way yonder different on a moving target being intercepted by a moving shot string. Nail a target to a board and you can calculate probability. I'd like to see the math on the moving target and moving shot string scenario.
lakecrisco- You are correct in concluding that the two dimensions seen on a pattern sheet is different that the three dimensions involved with the shot string moving toward a moving target. But, when factoring in the speed of the shot and the speed of the target, the differences are not as great as many seem to believe.
Capt. Rick, thanks for pointing that out. No offense taken. It looks like we are both wrong.
I inadvertently gave data for 8 1/2 shot. Mea Culpa, the print on the spreadsheet printout is very small. The data for 8 shot is as follows:
8s @1200 reach 40 yards in .1452 sec with .85 ft/lbs remaining energy.
8s @ 1300fps take .1373 and arrive with .96 ft/lbs.
The difference in time of flight to 40 yards is .0079 sec. The energy delta is .11 ft/lb.
Capt. you are using old ballistics tables. When Ed Lowry and his team at Winchester analyzed the Pautuxtet data it became obvious the old tables were wrong. After subsequent testing they came up with new tables which have been widely accepted. I don't have a table or I'd offer to send it to you. I took the data from Shotgun Ballistics for Windows, shell by shell, speed by speed and put it in a spreadsheet so I wouldn't have to run a calculation every time I wanted a ToF, lead or retained energy figure. Now all I have to do is look_at_the_right_row when I report data.
Here is some additional data. Using the shot string section of Shotgun Ballistics for Windows for a gun that shoots 80% patterns at a 40 yard target crossing at 44fps using 8 shot, you get the following data:
for a 7/8oz load, only 47 pellets have any chance of hitting the target at_all.
for a 1oz load, only 54; for a 1 1/8oz load, only 60.
That's a 15% increase going from 7/8oz to 1oz, and an 11% increase from 1oz to 1 1/8oz.
If you like shooting 7/8 loads, do it. If you have more confedence in 7/8's, shoot them. If you prefer a red hat to a blue hat and the red hat makes you shoot better, wear the red hat. Shooting is all about what works for you, just do it.
When your instructor said:
Just completed a clinic from an all-American this weekend--he said the key to winning is accurate placement of as much lead as you can legally put out there.
I assume he was talking projectiles....not weight. Having said that, can we assume that 1 oz. of 8 shot is equal to 1 1/8 oz. of 7 1/2 shot in that regard?? Pretty much the same number of projectiles being thrown at the target.
Energy aside...which can be made up by velocity of course.
I completely understand the argument, but seems like more emphasis is being put on the quantity of the shot and less on the quality of the SHOT.
When you say more is better...it depends on what more is. Weight of the shot charge is only relevant when you are comparing the same shot size.
No doubt, the more shot you throw the greater the odds of breaking the target if you are on the target.