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Perazzi TM1 question

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6.1K views 41 replies 18 participants last post by  JACK  
#1 ·
Came across an interesting TM1. Let me first say I know next to nothing about Perazzi shotguns. I can tell that this is a Winchester imported gun with a production year of 1979. It has an aftermarket Rhino choke installed, and has a strange epoxy section in the stock.

Did these older TM1s come with choke tubes, or was the barrel altered to add the tube?

What is up with the epoxy in the stock? What would be the purpose? Stock repair? Aftermarket voodoo to control recoil? Factory option?

Trying to ascertain a fair value for this gun.

Any help would be appreciated!

scott

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P
#3 ·
Looks like some installed a G-squared recoil system to that stock at some point. The shooter didn't like it, or sold it. Anyway, some shooter at some point, removed the G-squared (or simularly made recoil system) and had someone us epoxy to re-install the upper wood section!!! The end result to me, looks like a Butcher Job at this point!!!
Yes, these ole guns all had fixed chokes. Some installed aftermarket chokes in that gun. Another point that lowers the price way down, for any Perazzi lovers who want to buy these ole guns. Since most buyers, want the guns to be in original condition!!! I would hate to try to give you a fair market price for that ole gun. break em all jeff
 
#5 ·
I have two, one is a 1977 Ithaca Import, it has a 34" bbl w/factory screw chokes. My other my wife shoots. It is a 1982 Winchester Import and sports a 32" bbl w/factory screw chokes so yes many came with factory screw chokes. Both guns the flats on the receiver are stamped TM1 but the red factory inspection cards have written in by hand TMS from the person who inspected the gun and filled out all the specifications on the card.
 
#8 ·
Hi Scott-
Type One choke tubes were available on the later Ithaca imports (1976/8) TM1 (Competition IV) as well as the Winchester TMS production run. The TM1 or TMS stamp is on the top of the left shoulder of the receiver. It is an aftermarket choke tube unless the receiver is stamped TMS. Of course, if the barrel serial number doesn't match the receiver, then who knows. Also, I have no knowledge of whether Rhino ever manufactured Type One chokes. To add further worthless detail, TMS is a TM1 with factory choke tubes. "S" stands for "Strozzatori", which means "choke tubes" in Italian (the "i" makes it plural). If you care to provide pics of the barrel markings, the rib and a choke tube, I can provide much more historical detail. Wonderful guns.

Paul
 
#12 ·
Right around 79/80 is when the importer changed from Ithaca to Winchester. It appears that your gun has what I call the "mid" forearm, which USUALLY indicates an early to mid Winchester era gun (smaller forearms came in on the switch to Perazzi USA in 81). Really fat forearms were on the Ithaca imports (at least two varieties). Is the rib parallel or tapered? Some Perazzi experts will tell you that the WInchester TM's had tapered ribs, but I can tell you for certain that is not entirely true. I owned a Winchester import that had a parallel rib.

I know....WAY more than you cared to know. But I can't help myself, I was on a roll....

Paul
 
#13 ·
The rib is tapered. Barrel and receiver serial numbers match - dated to 1979. To make sure I understand you correctly, you are saying that if the choke tube was factory, it would be a Generation 1 tube with threads at the top. Do I have that correct?

If the tubes are aftermarket, does that, in your opinion, diminish the value of the gun? Also, the top lever is very close to 6 o’clock. Does that indicate it will need some TLC sooner than later? And then there is the stock.

Appreciate your willingness to help me understand what i have here.

scott
 
#14 ·
Hi Scott-
All good questions, and my opinions are worth exactly what you're paying for them...
Having said that, YES you are correct. If it was factory tubes, it would be Type One and the threads would be at the end of the barrel. Yes, in some people's eyes aftermarket anything diminishes value to some extend. BUT, good tubes wouldn't affect value as much as that nifty job on the stock. Replacement stocks come up for sale on occasion. Pick one up.

When the top lever is around 6:00, it's time to at least have the gun inspected for a new locking block. I've seen TM's continue for another 20k rounds at the 6:00 position, but if it were mine I would just go ahead and get it done. It's not a big deal.

While I MUCH prefer an original gun, I must admit that I'm a pretty serious shooter and ALL my TM's have an adjustable comb. I just think that is essential for proper gun fit. I have no interest in my safe being a museum. But, I would not put any money in your current stock.

First stop is the pattern board. See how the thing shoots and then shoot a couple thousand birds. THEN put a plan together for what you need to do. (Of course, include the locking block).

Paul
 
P
#16 ·
The choke tube pictured is definitely not a perazzi choke tube I’ve owned several perazzi‘s but I am no means an expert so I have a question, since it’s a Winchester import with a tapered rib is there absolutely no possibility it might’ve have left the factory with perazzi’s second generation choke tubes ?
 
#17 ·
With Perazzi, never say never. One must remember how small the company was back in the day. I'm sure they used stuff up as they could, which would explain why change-over dates are so fuzzy. In any event, your Winchester import is most likely 79/80. Perazzi began making the TMX in '81. I have never seen a Winchester import with anything but gen one. Most TMX barrels are gen two. But the dates are close....so who knows.
Paul
 
C
#18 · (Edited)
Not sure if this is 100% true, but I have observed that if Perazzi barrels are factory choked, they are swaged at the muzzle to accommodate the choke tubes. Accordingly, IMO if the barrel has choke tubes but does not have noticeable bulge to accommodate the choke tubes they are aftermarket.

My first TM1, bought used, IIRC S/N 3xxx was an Ithaca import and had a 34" factory fixed choke barrel. This one had a V mainspring. I had Briley install choke tubes. I really loved that gun but sold it because I was no longer shooting trap.

Six or seven years ago l got involved in a trap league and searched for a similar unmolested TM1. What I found was a 34" TM1, imported by Ithaca with all matching 66xxx s/n (except stock), a striped receiver, coil main spring, factory gen 1 choke tubes, and original case w/accessories including red makers spec sheet. TM1 is marked on the top flat of the receiver. While I haven't bothered to mic the choke tubes they are numbered 5, 7 and 9 with a vibrator tool on the smooth section below the threads - that is vs. number designation stamped in the knurled ridge of later choke tubes - which leads me to believe they were early in the adaption process. Per the Perazzi convention I assume they are .020, .028 and .036.

Last year I ordered and received, a new factory adjustable comb RH stock, like on my HTS, but adjusted for difference in rib height and inlet to fit the TM1. Near 50 y.o., it looks and feels like new. Love that gun.

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Wish I had more pics of the barrel end and choke tubes but we are away.
 
#19 ·
I had a perazzi TMS circa 1980 that had factory screw in chokes as well, came with a PFS stock and the original factory stock that had been shortened to 12", didn't shoot it any better than I did my KX6 special so I sold it off
 
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#20 ·
machine121 said:
Came across an interesting TM1. Let me first say I know next to nothing about Perazzi shotguns. I can tell that this is a Winchester imported gun with a production year of 1979. It has an aftermarket Rhino choke installed, and has a strange epoxy section in the stock.

Did these older TM1s come with choke tubes, or was the barrel altered to add the tube?

What is up with the epoxy in the stock? What would be the purpose? Stock repair? Aftermarket voodoo to control recoil? Factory option?

Trying to ascertain a fair value for this gun.

Any help would be appreciated!

scott

View attachment 1961748 View attachment 1961749
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I agree with Pull n Mark that the stock had a G Square installed that someone didn’t like and this was the solution to still make the stock useable to them. But in this day_and_age when a majority of people desire an adjustable comb, I believe this makes the stock undesirable, possibly worthless as I doubt one could be installed that wasn’t cobbled together and with that comb cut that presently exits, undesirable. If you were selling this gun I would think the price would need lowered more to compensate for selling than a good used conventional stock could be purchased for. Plus, this stock will drastically reduce interest and prolong sell.

Tubes are aftermarket they appear due to thread placement. I would definitely not say these guns didn’t or couldn’t come from the factory with tubes as a friend of mine that was a consistent squadron mate, Buford Bailey was shooting a striped receiver gun which was probably a TM4 in the mid 70’s that had tubes. Also MT6’s had tubes. Point being is factory tubes were certainly available in this era of Perazzis and. Not unlike Md12’s, various configurations could be ordered at customers request.

With probable locking block repair, possible top lever, another stock and aftermarket tubes with no documentation, I think Jack is being generous with his figure.
 
T
#21 ·
Hi Scott I am not a Perazzi expert by any means but the thing is that it's like cars someone usually modifies some for their own tastes. I believe you can still lookup the serial numbers to see originally what how it came from the manufacturer. Maybe someone on trapshooters can supply the list. Looks like a nice gun. I agree that someone did a strange mod to the stock which is unfortunate. The good news is that anything can be put back to original, maybe not the barrel but everything else.
 
#22 ·
My TMX was proofed in 1982 and has factory generation 2 choke tubes. The wall thickness at the muzzle is definitely much thicker than my MX3 Single barrel with its Briley Series 54 thinwall choke tubes. The factory choke tubes in the TMX never get loose even though I change chokes for Singles and Caps. I use a bit of teflon tape on the Briley choke tube so that it does not get loose and do Not change that choke. I heard that if you accidentally drop a thinwall choke tube on the ground and it gets even a small dent you better throw it away and buy a new one instead of buying a new expensive barrel set for your gun.
 
#23 ·
Some general housekeeping matters...

Type One choke tubes were available on the later Ithaca imports as well as the TM1 (Competition IV) and the Winchester TMS production run. The trapshooting community often refers to the striped receiver version as a TM4. This is not correct. The correct designation is TM1 Comp IV. In fact, the shoulder of ALL striped receivers are stamped "TM1".

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The TM1 Competition IV is a choke tube SBT imported by Ithaca. The TM1 Comp IV was simply an evolution of the TM1. It is identical in every respect (internally) with the predecessor TM's as well as the ones that came after. Now, Perazzi did in fact make a TM4. These were very early three digit serial number guns. I believe three exist. I have one of them. The shoulder is clearly stamped "TM4".

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You will note that the TM4 engraving is quite deep, unlike the shallower engraving found on the TM3 and the later TM1L.

Paul
 
C
#25 · (Edited)
Thank you, Paul. I really appreciate information. Also loved to see your TM4 and your TM1 Comp IV. This discussion really reinforces a lesson I learned about British Gunmakers, that you never say never. Certainly in the first 15-20 years, Perazzi was a "boutique" maker and even now they probably make whatever a customer wants.

BTW, I am struck by the polished finish evident in your picture of the action of your TM4.
 
C
#27 · (Edited)
Paul, I have owned 6 Perazzi guns over maybe 40 years, all basic models except the two most recent which were "Lusso" grades. While I have seen a number of others at various venues I only claim deep familiarity with those 6. That said, looking at the photo above of your TM4 it seems to me that the quality of the metal finish shown is better than on the guns I have owned. Here is my question, do you notice a lot of difference in the quality of internal metal finishes in P guns; 1. over the years? 2. between grades? Thanks in advance for the info.
 
#28 ·
Based on my experience, I can tell you I've noticed a couple things. First, I do think that my TM4 had additional "attention" in the manufacturing process, evidenced by what you are observing. I also have a TM3 that likewise shows excellent finishing details, at least as compared to my late model TM1. Having said that, both my TM3 and TM4 are very early three digit guns. Quite honestly, I find the parts fit and overall finishing to be superior in the very early guns, and as such I prefer them. The exception would be the Comp IV I sold to CharlieAMA. It was mechanically the nicest "operating" TM1 I have ever owned.

So I really cannot answer your question directly. Is the finishing quality of my TM3 and TM4 due to the grade or early production? I really cannot say. But I will tell you, when I have an opportunity to buy an original early gun, I don't hesitate.

Paul
 
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