liability insurance covering clubs holding ATA shoots.

nudehunter1 · Jan 21, 2023

Recently our club membership has been asking questions to our club lawyers and insurers

about liability extended to non members. Its been determined that non members are

required to fill out an envelop and pay a $5 fee to extend a temporary membership-tor them.

The next question does the ATA extend some sort of liability insurance to its members

attending a sanction registered shoot at gun clubs holding those registered shoots?

I myself had never had to temp join a club to attend a registered ATA shoot at another

club. Much less pay a fee for that privilege.

having been involved with a accidental discharge at the Grand 2 years ago, when my

pickup and a van parked next to me were peppered with shot and black top when

a fellow was putting his gun away in the back of his van after leaving the practice

range pulled the trigger on what he thought was a snap cap and shot the ground

behind his van right after a large group of kids had walked down the parking.

I assumed that the fellow who pulled the triggers insurance paid to have the van repainted.

is this a legit question? Are we worrying about nothing? I'm assuming that the ATA

has some sort of insurance covering ATA members and guests at the Grand.

What are other club doing regarding liability insurance at ATA shoots?

JBrooks · Jan 21, 2023

You need to get a better policy.

Outrunu · Jan 21, 2023

I know that in the bylaws of one club in in, the wording is along the lines of "any attendee at a scheduled event is granted temporary membership for duration of said event."

marbax · Jan 21, 2023

Get a real lawyer and insurance company.

Your liability insurance covers anyone that steps foot on club property. And tell your lawyer, no one can proactively release liability. Aside from the Grand, all ATA registered shoots are covered by the host club's policy.

When you invite people to your house for dinner, do you require them to be put on your homeowner's policy?

There are plenty of agents that will guide you to insurance companies that will write gun club related policies for you, you just don't go down to the local guy and hope for the best.

For instance, Philadelphia Insurance is one of them. I don't know if they will deal directly with customers, my club uses an agent.

BIGDON · Jan 21, 2023

I have not heard off some of your concerns after 50+ years in the insurance biz. There are companies that specialize in insuring gun clubs and shooting facilitie, find one. You might start talking to a couple of those who advertise here. What state you are located in may affect what is available to you. This is not the time to give the business to a club member just because he is a member or relative.

I wouldn’t join a club who didn’t have proper Liability Ins. because in many cases that liability could be passed on to the members.

Don

Turbine · Jan 21, 2023

Don’t even think of charging club non members more to shoot at an ATA event. That is not allowed in the ATA rules. If you do it, your club should loose the ability to hold ATA events. See Section 4A4 of the ATA rules.

JBrooks · Jan 21, 2023

marbax said:
And tell your lawyer, no one can proactively release liability.

This is incorrect. A properly worded waiver, per a club's state laws, is a valid release of liability except in the case of wiillful or gross negligence. I know a lot of clubs don't require waiver because "Somebody said they don't work". Well, that "somebody" is wrong and those clubs better get some good legal advice.

broadway john · Jan 21, 2023

JBrooks said:
This is incorrect. A properly worded waiver, per a club's state laws, is a valid release of liability except in the case of wiillful or gross negligence. I know a lot of clubs don't require waiver because "Somebody said they don't work". Well, that "somebody" is wrong and those clubs better get some good legal advice.

States that do not Support the Use of a Release

Assumption of the risk is your best defense in these states These states do not allow a recreational business or program to use a release to stop litigation. State Citation Issues Releases are Void…

recreation-law.com

jktphd · Jan 21, 2023

Interesting timing for me. I just two days ago signed a required release of liability in a state where they are void. I guess nobody told the board.

JBrooks · Jan 21, 2023

broadway john said:
States that do not Support the Use of a Release

Assumption of the risk is your best defense in these states These states do not allow a recreational business or program to use a release to stop litigation. State Citation Issues Releases are Void…

recreation-law.com

JBrooks · Jan 21, 2023

Thanks for the good link. As stated in the link, assumption of risk is the defense when a release is not available. Even if you are able to use a release you may have to have the participant acknowledge that there is a risk, that they know what the risk is or the risk has been explained to them to their satisfaction and that they are willing to assume that risk to participate.

marbax · Jan 21, 2023

JBrooks said:
Thanks for the good link. As stated in the link, assumption of risk is the defense when a release is not available. Even if you are able to use a release you may have to have the participant acknowledge that there is a risk, that they know what the risk is or the risk has been explained to them to their satisfaction and that they are willing to assume that risk to participate.

I guess you cleared that up.

Waivers, as used in this context, aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

JBrooks · Jan 22, 2023

Actually, they can be from a practical standpoint if not a legal one. 95%+ of lawsuits never go to trial because they get settled. As such, what the law is is never applied in those 95%. Anything you have on your side of the ledger that can raise doubts on the other side, increases their work load or money that has to be spent to fight, increases your bargaining power. Lawyers know that jurors are liable to do anything and can be influenced in many ways. The judge may throw out the waiver in court or the plaintiff can argue it's invalid but the jury is sitting there thinking, "Hey, this guy signed a paper that he knew the risks and now he is raising a technical argument to get out of his share of the responsibility."

KopeckyMD78 · Jan 22, 2023

Here in California I haven't had to deal liability insurance at any ATA, NSSA, or ISSF shoots, but I have had to sign liability waivers to attend fun shoots and charity shoots. Three major clubs here make you fill out paperwork and sign waivers to shoot a practice round. Redlands, Oak Tree, and LA Clays.

marbax · Jan 22, 2023

KopeckyMD78 said:
Here in California I haven't had to deal liability insurance at any ATA, NSSA, or ISSF shoots, but I have had to sign liability waivers to attend fun shoots and charity shoots. Three major clubs here make you fill out paperwork and sign waivers to shoot a practice round. Redlands, Oak Tree, and LA Clays.

If waivers were legal, why would there be liability insurance at all? Of course you can't tell the insurance/safety Nazis anything, so just keep signing them, it's the path of least resistance. But always know, if there is injury or damages due to gross negligence, your lawyer will take care of it. Then you can frame a copy of the waiver and the check under the same glass.

nudehunter1 · Jan 22, 2023

waivers or not, the issue is, that any small club that has to go to court, has to get a lawyer and that costs money, something a lot of smaller clubs cannot afford, the costs to defend themselfs could ruin a small club.

marbax · Jan 23, 2023

nudehunter1 said:
waivers or not, the issue is, that any small club that has to go to court, has to get a lawyer and that costs money, something a lot of smaller clubs cannot afford, the costs to defend themselfs could ruin a small club.

Except the insurance company provides the defense.

JBrooks · Jan 23, 2023

marbax said:
But always know, if there is injury or damages due to gross negligence, your lawyer will take care of it.

Ya know, if you would educate yourself a little, you wouldn't post nonsense. In California, properly constructed waivers are absolutely valid. What you really need to do is read about the difference between negligence and gross negligence. One is common and is what causes the most problems, the other is actually pretty rare.

Larry C. · Jan 23, 2023

marbax said:
Except the insurance company provides the defense.

All liability insurance policies provide essentially (2) things : 1.) A limit applicable per occurrence with an aggregate limit. 2.) Defense costs. Defense costs can be afforded outside policy limits or within policy limits where their utilization diminishes applicable limit of liability available to pay damages awarded.

nudehunter1 · Feb 8, 2023

After putting more pressure on my clubs managment, they decided to deal with our insurance carrier and we got a new policy that will allow non members to attend ATA shoots with out paying a guest fee that made them a member for the day. It was pointed out that this problem affected more than the trap division, it encluded the cowboy shoots, sporting clay and some pistol competitions that non members attended. I just now have to pick a date for my first ATA shoot in 2 years.

liability insurance covering clubs holding ATA shoots.

nudehunter1

JBrooks

Outrunu

marbax

BIGDON

Turbine

JBrooks

broadway john

States that do not Support the Use of a Release

jktphd

JBrooks

States that do not Support the Use of a Release

JBrooks

marbax

JBrooks

KopeckyMD78

marbax

nudehunter1

marbax

JBrooks

Larry C.

nudehunter1

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