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Hodgdon Wad Substitution Chart

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Chuck DeVoid

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Reloading data clearly shows substituting wads yields different pressure levels, going from an OEM wad to a clone wad. Is it safe to use the wad substitution chart?? Examlpe substituting a Blue Duster or CB1118-12 for a WAA12. What about the reverse, that is, substituting the OEM wad for a clone wad??

The Hodgdon chart states:
"The following chart shows wads designed to perform
as replacements for current popular models as
listed in the ensuing data."

Just questioning the validity of the wad substitution chart from a safety / pressure standpoint.

Thanks in advance, Bill
 
#2 ·
Chuck DeVoid said:
Reloading data clearly shows substituting wads yields different pressure levels, going from an OEM wad to a clone wad. Is it safe to use the wad substitution chart?? Examlpe substituting a Blue Duster or CB1118-12 for a WAA12. What about the reverse, that is, substituting the OEM wad for a clone wad??

The Hodgdon chart states:
"The following chart shows wads designed to perform
as replacements for current popular models as
listed in the ensuing data."

Just questioning the validity of the wad substitution chart from a safety / pressure standpoint.

Thanks in advance, Bill
Click to expand...
What’s the question? You DO use a recipe chart. Right?
 
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#3 ·
Chuck DeVoid said:
Reloading data clearly shows substituting wads yields different pressure levels, going from an OEM wad to a clone wad. Is it safe to use the wad substitution chart?? Examlpe substituting a Blue Duster or CB1118-12 for a WAA12. What about the reverse, that is, substituting the OEM wad for a clone wad??

The Hodgdon chart states:
"The following chart shows wads designed to perform
as replacements for current popular models as
listed in the ensuing data."

Just questioning the validity of the wad substitution chart from a safety / pressure standpoint.

Thanks in advance, Bill
Click to expand...
Me thanks you are comparing apples to oranges.clones of the same wad are just that. They are the same. The difference is when you sub a different style wad. That's the issue. Use loading data.
 
Discussion starter · #4 ·
Clarification: I know always follow data and components. Also data is only a guide. Of course one would not substitute a Rem Figure 8 for a WAA12, etc.. The clone wads are a copy of the OEM, but do yield different pressure.

I'm referring more to the novice reloader, who might look at the wad substitution chart and figure it's OK to substitute a WAA12 for a CB1118-12. The claybuster bags even say "use date for WAA12", WAA12SL, etc.. Without first checking data, one might think it's OK to substitute wads, clone for OEM or vice-versa. Often clone wads yield lower pressures, but not always.

More of an observation than questions.
 
#5 ·
Chuck DeVoid said:
Often clone wads yield lower pressures, but not always.
Click to expand...
Have you actually seen a load where both a clone and the OEM wad were tested, and the clone resulted in higher pressure?

I have looked through the 12ga data from Alliant and Hodgdon for AA style wads (WAA12 vs. CB1118, WAA12SL vs. CB1100, WAA12L vs. CB0178) for Fed, Win and Rem primers. Mostly there was data for one wad or the other, but not both. For the few powders that tested both wads, I saw no instances where the clone wad was higher pressure than the OEM, all other components being the same.

I didn't by any means do an exhaustive search of every possible combination so you may be right, just wondering if you are stating this because you've seen it somewhere or making an assumption.
 
#8 ·
Nebs said:
Data using Red Dot and the Blue Duster sometimes shows higher pressure than a similar load using the OEM wad.
Click to expand...
Found it... 1-1/8 oz, 1090 fps, Rem hull and primer. Blue Duster is 300 psi over the WAA12. That's it, though -- the other loads (1145 and 1200 psi) show the WAA12 having higher pressure than the BD although still within a few hundred psi. Close enough I wouldn't be worried about substituting one for the other.

After rereading the OP, I would say that you shouldn't substitute an OEM wad for a clone wad, at least not the Claybuster wads where they seem to be designed to produce less pressure than the OEMs. For other wads you might get a sense of how close they are to the OEM pressures by reading through the data.
 
#9 ·
bosni said:
Found it... 1-1/8 oz, 1090 fps, Rem hull and primer. Blue Duster is 300 psi over the WAA12. That's it, though -- the other loads (1145 and 1200 psi) show the WAA12 having higher pressure than the BD although still within a few hundred psi. Close enough I wouldn't be worried about substituting one for the other.

After rereading the OP, I would say that you shouldn't substitute an OEM wad for a clone wad, at least not the Claybuster wads where they seem to be designed to produce less pressure than the OEMs. For other wads you might get a sense of how close they are to the OEM pressures by reading through the data.
Click to expand...
If you’re reading through the data USE IT.
 
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#11 ·
flashmax said:
If you’re reading through the data USE IT.
Click to expand...
If the wad you're using is the one listed in the data, sure.

I think the OP's question has more to do with what happens when that's not the case, and either you have a clone wad and the data calls for OEM or vice versa.

The clone manufacturers say "use data for OEM wads" and I think most people would assume that it's safe to substitute a clone in loads that list an OEM wad, e.g. a CB1100 for a WAA12SL. At least for Claybusters, data indicates that using their clones usually results in a lower-pressure load.

But the converse does not seem to be true. If you have load data that lists only a clone (like these ExtraLite loads from Alliant's site, which use CB1100 wads but not the corresponding OEM WAA12SL wads) is it safe to assume that you can substitute in the OEM wad?
Image
 
#12 ·
bosni said:
Found it... 1-1/8 oz, 1090 fps, Rem hull and primer. Blue Duster is 300 psi over the WAA12. That's it, though -- the other loads (1145 and 1200 psi) show the WAA12 having higher pressure than the BD although still within a few hundred psi. Close enough I wouldn't be worried about substituting one for the other.

After rereading the OP, I would say that you shouldn't substitute an OEM wad for a clone wad, at least not the Claybuster wads where they seem to be designed to produce less pressure than the OEMs. For other wads you might get a sense of how close they are to the OEM pressures by reading through the data.
Click to expand...
I saw a load using AA hulls, win primer, Red Dot, 1145 fps, Blue Duster gives 10,600 psi with 16.5 gr. while the OEM gives 10,00 psi with 17 gr.
 
#14 ·
Nebs said:
I saw a load using AA hulls, win primer, Red Dot, 1145 fps, Blue Duster gives 10,600 psi with 16.5 gr. while the OEM gives 10,00 psi with 17 gr.
Click to expand...
Same for the 1090 load... 15.5gn @10300 psi for the BD, 16gn @9500 for the WAA12. I also saw one where the CB4118 clone was higher pressure than the OEM Windjammer. So CB wads are not ALWAYS lower pressure than the OEM. Sigh.

Back to the question at hand, does this mean you shouldn't substitute clones where OEM wads are called for, or vice versa? Is it possible to make an educated decision by looking at the published data? One of the big selling points for clones is that you should be able to use them wherever an OEM wad is listed.
 
#15 ·
Even though I read and reread the powder manufacturers reloading tables, I will admit I use Claybuster wads almost exclusively. I DO NOT, however, load anything approaching a maximum load. Some of my friends continuously load back fence loads thinking that is what they need. They often comment about psi’s exceeding 10,000 and 1,300 fps. When I shoot sporting clays I don’t feel I need anything approaching those specs.

I load a multitude of powders. I don’t load more than one ounce of shot, most pressures don’t exceed 8,500 psi and the fps is 1,200 or less.
 
#17 ·
Re posts 12 and 14...I've used red dot with aacf cases, aa12 wad and blue duster, aa primer at 15.5 to 16.5 grains 11/8 shot and had no issues. 1oz, green duster wad, 16 to 17 grains red dot, others same, no issues. Factory crimp depth. You'll be ok. Old loads with Win wads in aacf or rxp or premier dull green or burgundy champion II follow contemporary data, 17 grain red dot, no issues. Federal paper base 18 grains red dot, fed 209 or 209a primer, 12s3 or clone, no issues with brass plated head, still dont care for the silver heads all that much tho. All worked well, patterned well. Too deep a crimp can raise pressures. Follow load data as much as you can, send some out for tests if you will. Used thousands of post 12 loads, no issues. Good to be conciencious about loading, ask lots of questions, they're welcome. You have to seriously fubar a load to blow up a gun. Unless shooting beyond 24ish yards or the parking lot, these loads will do fine.
 
#19 ·
target.orange said:
Why?
Click to expand...
1. Safety is the biggest reason.
2. Consistency in performance.
3. Efficiency of components.


I'm NOT a writer but here's my take...
1. A guy probably ain't gonna blow up his gun from over-pressured shells but just suppose you load an entire flat of shells that are over-pressured. In time, that stress could very well crack the stock on your $15,000 Perazzi or break the link in the 1100 that you've broken your best scores with...

2. Really low pressure loads aren't gonna perform from shot to shot as good as a box of 'bullets' that are loaded up with a decent recipe...
Picture the guy on the line that has 1 or 2 bloopers on each station - do you think he's ever gonna figure out his leads? It takes good pressure to get good consistent burn.

3. Efficiency can go either way. Why dump 20gr of Green Dot in a 1oz load when you can get the same performance with 18gr of Red Dot and have enough pressure to burn ALL of your powder. (therefore a cleaner barrel)
That can be talked about all weekend but my coffee hasn't taken effect yet... lol
 
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Chuck DeVoid
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