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Is trigger control a reason for FTF’s on a second barrel with a Browning 725?

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#22 ·
In the single target trap disciplines we shoot in the UK (DTL, ABT, UT and OT) you're allowed a second shot at the target. Consequently, you'd imagine the opportunities for a shooter to "trap the trigger" would be huge and yet it very, very rarely happens in my experience. Whether the trigger is mechanical or inertia seems not to matter.

I can only call to mind two individuals who've had the problem.

One was a police officer who bought himself an expensive K80 as a retirement present to himself. He was forever having problems firing the second barrel. He sent it to the Krieghoff importer several times stating there was a problem with the trigger mechanism. They examined it and told him there was nothing wrong and the reason he wasn't able to fire the second barrel was because he wasn't releasing the trigger. He wouldn't accept that and went ballistic! I recall the air went blue. I'm not sure what the final outcome was because I didn't stick around to find out :cautious:.

The other individual is a friend of mine who was a former European pistol shooting champion. He insists on squeezing his shotgun triggers instead of slapping them regardless of my advice not to do so. I gave up trying to help him a long time ago. One day he wanted to shoot one of my Beretta 692 trap guns and immediately found he couldn't get it to fire two shots. I had a look at what he was doing and decided to move the adjustable trigger forward (he has slender hands and long fingers like a concert pianist whereas mine are like a blacksmith's). The change worked instantly. He didn't become a "slapper", but at least his trigger finger wasn't constricted around the trigger like a python.
 
#23 ·
Old_Diabetic_100 said:
In the single target trap disciplines we shoot in the UK (DTL, ABT, UT and OT) you're allowed a second shot at the target. Consequently, you'd imagine the opportunities for a shooter to "trap the trigger" would be huge and yet it very, very rarely happens in my experience. Whether the trigger is mechanical or inertia seems not to matter.

I can only call to mind two individuals who've had the problem.

One was a police officer who bought himself an expensive K80 as a retirement present to himself. He was forever having problems firing the second barrel. He sent it to the Krieghoff importer several times stating there was a problem with the trigger mechanism. They examined it and told him there was nothing wrong and the reason he wasn't able to fire the second barrel was because he wasn't releasing the trigger. He wouldn't accept that and went ballistic! I recall the air went blue. I'm not sure what the final outcome was because I didn't stick around to find out :cautious:.

The other individual is a friend of mine who was a former European pistol shooting champion. He insists on squeezing his shotgun triggers instead of slapping them regardless of my advice not to do so. I gave up trying to help him a long time ago. One day he wanted to shoot one of my Beretta 692 trap guns and immediately found he couldn't get it to fire two shots. I had a look at what he was doing and decided to move the adjustable trigger forward (he has slender hands and long fingers like a concert pianist whereas mine are like a blacksmith's). The change worked instantly. He didn't become a "slapper", but at least his trigger finger wasn't constricted around the trigger like a python.
Click to expand...
I moved mine forward a tad with similar thinking...rather than move it back with the thought of less forward travel to reset, I'm hoping that by moving forward is an effort to not have a handful of trigger to let go of
I don't think that sounds right as I reread it but it makes sense to me...
 
#24 ·
WadHopper said:
I moved mine forward a tad with similar thinking...rather than move it back with the thought of less forward travel to reset, I'm hoping that by moving forward is an effort to not have a handful of trigger to let go of
I don't think that sounds right as I reread it but it makes sense to me...
Click to expand...
Makes sense to me.
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
Guys, I’m going to tell you... this is NOT a trigger trapping issue. We were back at it with this gun today fully aware of the trigger release problem ... and with the best effort of trigger management by several very experienced shooters that dead top barrel second shot just happened more and more. Believe me, there is a shooter out here with a new gun — signed up for a full Memorial Day Weekend of ATA that has steam pouring out of both ears

We will move the trigger around this evening and tighten up the Gracoil for more resistance - but again, how could that be an issue on a mechanical trigger... :mad:
 
#26 ·
Sportshot said:
Guys, I’m going to tell you... this is NOT a trigger trapping issue. We were back at it with this gun today fully aware of the trigger release problem ... and with the best effort of trigger management by several very experienced shooters that dead top barrel second shot just happened more and more. Believe me, there is a shooter out here with a new gun — signed up for a full Memorial Day Weekend of ATA that has steam pouring out of both ears

We will move the trigger around this evening and tighten up the Gracoil for more resistance - but again, how could that be an issue on a mechanical trigger... :mad:
Click to expand...
Then maybe try swapping the barrel selector and see if the problem persists? If it does then -yeah- you got a problem.
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
WadHopper said:
I'm not, not a fan of them. I ordered my adjustable combo with cut comb only.
Click to expand...
Yes... that’s why I asked about Gracoil’s.

We were wondering if the tension or slack on a unit could affect the trigger reset. But is sounds like this problem is happening on guns both with and without a Gracoil
 
Discussion starter · #28 · (Edited)
I like that idea of changing choke tubes and shooting top first, then bottom - right?

so caught up in the moment we didn’t think of that ... .could be a weekend saver. thanks!
 
#29 ·
Sportshot said:
I like that idea of changing choke tubes and shooting top first, then bottom - right?

so caught up in the moment we didn’t think of that ... .could be a weekend saver. thanks!
Click to expand...
Yep. Give it a shot on the practice trap.
Something I'm also going to try is the thinner, standard style trigger. My thought is if using the flared trigger shoe, the flare might not be slipping off the finger pad enough.
All this aside I must revert to my previous post that if I have trouble trapping again after a few changes I've mentioned and implemented...this gun and I may part ways quicker than I had hoped for.
 
#30 ·
jjhess said:
they are mechanical triggers
Click to expand...
They aren’t. Quoting incorrect browning marketing doesn’t make it so either.

Its the reason you’ll find 725 inertia work on Brileys gunsmithing list. The lower sub gauges don’t have enough recoil to reset the inertia block.


Chasd3 said:
I won't argue as you have more experience than I but I can dryfire mine and they both go. Not tubed just straight trap gun.
Click to expand...
That porch test doesn’t mean they aren’t inertia triggers.
 
Discussion starter · #31 ·
Maybe not true mechanical... the design has to be some kind of odd hybrid because the gun will dry fire both barrels with no inertia or recoil required.. and I am just assuming that it “dry fires” both barrels... something clicks and the ejectors reset but who knows what is going on behind the receiver ?

is it like an inertia assist? I’m sure if you looked at one, it’s probably over-engineered to hell and back... like a Krieghoff
 
#32 ·
The Browning 725 "mechanical" trigger is a funky design that doesn't behave like a real mechanical trigger (the exception being in Browning's ad campaign ). Why deal with the ongoing aggravation when it is easy enough to shoot a mecheanical trigger shotgun with a trigger that actually functions as it should. If you want to hear some interesting tales about 725 triggers talk to those that labor at making them reliable with small bore sub-gauge tubes.
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
beaker100 said:
725's are mechanical
Click to expand...
Spoken by someone who knows! Let me ask you something real quick Mr. Doug “beaker” Hubbard, since we have you on the line...

can you convert the 725 to a release/pull or a double release and will that solve this confounded Browning trigger problem? Thx
 
#35 ·
The 725 is just a regular citori design with a bulged mainspring to force an inertia block reset. It's a bastardized system, and a step backward from the tried and true Citori design of nearly 50 years.

OP- It is possible the Gracoil is causing the issue, as is if very light shells are being used. Either can caused the 725s ********* trigger to puke, in addition to using subgauge tubes as previously mentioned. In certain circumstances the 725s trigger can even double with very light loads.

Personally if I owned a 725 I'd regut it with traditional Citori parts to the extent possible.
 
#36 ·
beaker100 said:
725's are mechanical
Click to expand...
I appreciate your view as a gunsmith, but you need to look past Brownings marketing on this one.

If they were true mechanical triggers (ala Krieghoff, Kolar, Blaser, Cynergy) they would not need a trigger conversion to work with very light 12ga or subgauge tubes. A true mechanical trigger will fire both barrels under ALL circumstances, regardless of load or gauge being shot, just because it can dryfire both barrels in sequence doesn't necessarily mean it's a mechanical trigger, there are literally tens of thousands of Brownings and Berettas out there with subgauge tube sets which have been tuned to be able to do the same, but they are still inertia triggers. Browning half-assed their design, and the result was a trigger that was exponentially more problematic than the original design they'd been using for 40+ years.

This is a well known issue by anyone who's shot anything but standard 12ga loads through it, and is such an issue Briley even has a caveat on their website:

"Attention Browning 725 owners: Please note that due to the lighter recoil and additional weight of the tubes, the factory trigger may not function properly. A modification to the way it operates is required to be able to shoot small gauge. We must have the complete gun to complete this modification. The cost of this service is $195 plus return shipping and insurance."

Note, this is not required for ANY gun that has mechanical triggers. When having subgauge tubes installed in a gun with PROPER mechanical triggers, Briley needs nothing but the barrels.
 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
^—- Great info Skeet man ! So is it inertia or mechanical and why does that matter ... yes, the trigger pukes and that’s a HUGE PROBLEM... do you have any idea how many 725 trap guns Guns Unlimited is churning out? Have you seen their ads... like everywhere !

For the record, YES, that creature did double on me once this morning also.. just DAMN!
 
#38 ·
skeet_man said:
I appreciate your view as a gunsmith, but you need to look past Brownings marketing on this one.

If they were true mechanical triggers (ala Krieghoff, Kolar, Blaser, Cynergy) they would not need a trigger conversion to work with very light 12ga or subgauge tubes. A true mechanical trigger will fire both barrels under ALL circumstances, regardless of load or gauge being shot, just because it can dryfire both barrels in sequence doesn't necessarily mean it's a mechanical trigger, there are literally tens of thousands of Brownings and Berettas out there with subgauge tube sets which have been tuned to be able to do the same, but they are still inertia triggers. Browning half-assed their design, and the result was a trigger that was exponentially more problematic than the original design they'd been using for 40+ years.

This is a well known issue by anyone who's shot anything but standard 12ga loads through it, and is such an issue Briley even has a caveat on their website:

"Attention Browning 725 owners: Please note that due to the lighter recoil and additional weight of the tubes, the factory trigger may not function properly. A modification to the way it operates is required to be able to shoot small gauge. We must have the complete gun to complete this modification. The cost of this service is $195 plus return shipping and insurance."

Note, this is not required for ANY gun that has mechanical triggers. When having subgauge tubes installed in a gun with PROPER mechanical triggers, Briley needs nothing but the barrels.
Click to expand...
Sub gauge tubes are skeet thing are they not? Is it possible to limp wrist a shotgun?
 
#40 ·
Sportshot said:
^—- Great info Skeet man ! So is it inertia or mechanical and why does that matter ... yes, the trigger pukes and that’s a HUGE PROBLEM... do you have any idea how many 725 trap guns Guns Unlimited is churning out? Have you seen their ads... like everywhere !

For the record, YES, that creature did double on me once this morning also.. just DAMN!
Click to expand...
Personally, assuming parts compatibility, I'd start by replacing the inertia block and mainsprings with std Citori parts. If you can find the parts lists for each you should be able tell what's the same and what's different, the only question would be is if there were design changes to the receiver itself.

I almost wonder if this is what's being done anyways when the subgauge conversion is done, hence why Briley charges more for a 725 than a regular Citori, meaning it's more labor and/or parts intensive than a normal Citori. If anyone here has had this done, snap a few pics next time you have the stock off, I'd be interested in seeing.

BTW, Brownings response RE: puking with subgauge tubes was the gun was only design to shoot 12ga :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
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