Opinions and experience with CZ guns.....I'm looking for a 12 or 20ga gun for casual shooting for my grandkids to use when I take them shooting and for myself on occasion. Thanks
CZ guns.........?
dolphin77
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Having rejoined trap, skeet, etc. for the last 2 years, I've been pretty amazed at the current crop of regular versus pricy high end guns. Examples: One shooter in the middle of his club championship this past summer had his K gun trigger fail. I was told that another K gun at the same club burst(thank god, not exploded) about 5 years ago and that K offered merely a discount on a new gun, blaming the shell / load. In the past 5-6 weeks. I have recently seen myself two Browning 725s receivers/triggers fail to fire.
These memories were recalled to my attention when I bought a new Browning Cynergy CX two months ago for Trap Doubles and had the screws fall out of the wood forearm and the screws fall out that hold inserts under the barrel between the forearm and the forearm. And, Browning parts told me they cant get me the parts that fell off. Now I am told send it in even though they dont have the parts in the parts department. I'm playing along, but my gunsmith doesnt forecast it being a good experience. So what's so different about Turkish guns? CZ service is there for you and Browning is not there. Note I have emailed three execs at Browning and their parent company here and in Europe and none have replied. That's strange to me. I cant be the only customer with these problems.
But, what I also frankly dont see is results: I have not seen the owners of K guns, Perrazzis, etc shooting better than those with much less expensive guns other than sponsored winners of ATA championships. I dont see extraordinary service, reliability, service, or longevity. In contrast, a friend of mine is shooting a Rem Model 12 from the 60s with a fixed full choke and 30" barrel. I borrowed it and immediately ran a 25 in trap, obviously to my astonishment. THE GUN IS 60 YEARS OLD and was extensively used. I've since handled another, and it's a natural fit for me. To me, beyond the new guns including some of these for fit and comfort: adjustable rib, combs, buttplates, cast, and recoil absorbing I dont see their worth. But with Tristars you can get these for $1-2k
On the high end, I am told K guns need to go back for service every two years if you shoot 10k+ shells a year and every year if you shoot 20k+ shells. That's $400+ each time plus whatever's broken... And, in ten years that amounts to $4k. next, I have been told that here in New Jersey several times by K gun owners that they take comfort on service because the K company service is headquartered nearby in PA. Why should you need that comfort for a $23-45k gun? For that kind of money it better work
every time I need it.
So what's so different about Turkish guns? The price and the required service. I can buy a new one every two years for the cost of servicing the pricey guns. I can also buy a new Turkish gun for the price of the cases for the Ks and other pricey shotguns. Last, I dont have to have a heart attack about shooting in the rain messing up my $1.5k stock or, god forbid, dropping it, or putting down on a table with one or more sharp points. To me, that's ridiculous.
I'm guessing the CZ, Tristars, etc. and others are and will be getting very competitive. 2nd, the mid tier guns from Browing, Beretta, etc, better improve their service departments. While I have no info on their service, I have seen the dedicated trap Tristars perform. I have heard 2nd hand very good things about the advanced CZ trap guns. Also, on longevity, somebody up above cited a 38k+ shell demo by CZ and I've read of CZ's own similar durability demo with their 712 semi autos. They are like the Brownings I knew30 years ago: you oiled them, shot them, and cleaned them - and they literally
ran every time, and essentially forever unless you accidentally / actively broke one.
These memories were recalled to my attention when I bought a new Browning Cynergy CX two months ago for Trap Doubles and had the screws fall out of the wood forearm and the screws fall out that hold inserts under the barrel between the forearm and the forearm. And, Browning parts told me they cant get me the parts that fell off. Now I am told send it in even though they dont have the parts in the parts department. I'm playing along, but my gunsmith doesnt forecast it being a good experience. So what's so different about Turkish guns? CZ service is there for you and Browning is not there. Note I have emailed three execs at Browning and their parent company here and in Europe and none have replied. That's strange to me. I cant be the only customer with these problems.
But, what I also frankly dont see is results: I have not seen the owners of K guns, Perrazzis, etc shooting better than those with much less expensive guns other than sponsored winners of ATA championships. I dont see extraordinary service, reliability, service, or longevity. In contrast, a friend of mine is shooting a Rem Model 12 from the 60s with a fixed full choke and 30" barrel. I borrowed it and immediately ran a 25 in trap, obviously to my astonishment. THE GUN IS 60 YEARS OLD and was extensively used. I've since handled another, and it's a natural fit for me. To me, beyond the new guns including some of these for fit and comfort: adjustable rib, combs, buttplates, cast, and recoil absorbing I dont see their worth. But with Tristars you can get these for $1-2k
On the high end, I am told K guns need to go back for service every two years if you shoot 10k+ shells a year and every year if you shoot 20k+ shells. That's $400+ each time plus whatever's broken... And, in ten years that amounts to $4k. next, I have been told that here in New Jersey several times by K gun owners that they take comfort on service because the K company service is headquartered nearby in PA. Why should you need that comfort for a $23-45k gun? For that kind of money it better work
every time I need it.
So what's so different about Turkish guns? The price and the required service. I can buy a new one every two years for the cost of servicing the pricey guns. I can also buy a new Turkish gun for the price of the cases for the Ks and other pricey shotguns. Last, I dont have to have a heart attack about shooting in the rain messing up my $1.5k stock or, god forbid, dropping it, or putting down on a table with one or more sharp points. To me, that's ridiculous.
I'm guessing the CZ, Tristars, etc. and others are and will be getting very competitive. 2nd, the mid tier guns from Browing, Beretta, etc, better improve their service departments. While I have no info on their service, I have seen the dedicated trap Tristars perform. I have heard 2nd hand very good things about the advanced CZ trap guns. Also, on longevity, somebody up above cited a 38k+ shell demo by CZ and I've read of CZ's own similar durability demo with their 712 semi autos. They are like the Brownings I knew30 years ago: you oiled them, shot them, and cleaned them - and they literally
ran every time, and essentially forever unless you accidentally / actively broke one.
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I've never seen a Remington Model 12. When were those made? Might have to get me one of those!!!!!!!!!!!
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Octogon Barrel gallery gun made turn of the century until the depression. Some are only 4-500 bucks others carry a premium. Internet experts on Turkish superiority I believe was referring to a Winchester M12, in any case both companies model 12s are superior to the fit and finish of todays Asia Minor imports
To all:
1. The Model 12 is a 12 gauge pump with a 30" barrel and a trap stock(high and straight) and a fixed Full Choke..
Please note it is not adjustable and may not fit you like a glove like it does me.
2. My previous note is just how the shooting world honestly looks to me versus 30 years ago.
3. to Mr. 308: Respectfully, not sure what you mean by "The lady doth protest too much, me thinks." but I'm a newly
retired cyber security guy, I am not on any commission in any way, and could buy a K or Perazzi gun if I wanted.
I was even offered a plain one just K gun serviced at a club for $5k and turned it down. Just didnt shoot as well as
the CZ 612 Target does for me. That's about a $550 gun but is too slow/rough cycling for Doubles.
1. The Model 12 is a 12 gauge pump with a 30" barrel and a trap stock(high and straight) and a fixed Full Choke..
Please note it is not adjustable and may not fit you like a glove like it does me.
2. My previous note is just how the shooting world honestly looks to me versus 30 years ago.
3. to Mr. 308: Respectfully, not sure what you mean by "The lady doth protest too much, me thinks." but I'm a newly
retired cyber security guy, I am not on any commission in any way, and could buy a K or Perazzi gun if I wanted.
I was even offered a plain one just K gun serviced at a club for $5k and turned it down. Just didnt shoot as well as
the CZ 612 Target does for me. That's about a $550 gun but is too slow/rough cycling for Doubles.
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If I had a dollar to bet, I bet more targets have been broken by a model 12 than any other gun made period. There is a reason you ran 25 with no experience with the gun. Just like a pre64 model 70 some people will debate if a Remington 700 or one of the new wonder black rifles are better in certain aspects but nothing feels as good out of the box than a old hand fitted Winchester
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Our club is in a University town and we have a lot of student participation and we have had about 40 of the CZ O/U shotguns that we use as rental guns. In the four years of using these shotguns we have had very few problems, perhaps about a half dozen broken firing pins, one side rib solder failure, and one barrel selector failure. We sell the euro shells with the harder primers and I blame them for the firing pin breakage. I get stuck with being the club gun fixer and I have replaced more bottom barrel firing pins in Browning Citori shotguns and soldered more rib failures on Perazzi guns than I have out of a larger number of CZ guns in about the same period of time. I will have to say the side rib failures on the Perazzis were more on my MX-8 that a previous owner had the barrels over bored on than any other. The CZ shotguns hold up very well considering that they are almost the only ones used as rental guns by our club.
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Sorry if this distracts from the thread, but a phrase popped into my head and I can’t shake it: CZ, peasy, lemon sqeezy. Again, sorry. 
Henrydog:
Thank you for your insight.
I remain totally mystified. Despite reading what's supposed to be the best books on gun fitting like Jeff Meloy's Understanding Gun Stocks(I am not a friend nor on commission, there's others on Amazon) and extensive observation
I cant honestly define why a gun works for me or anybody else. I cant tell you why that plain(not inscribed) 32" K80 O/U
did not work for me but it didnt. And I knew the $5k offer for that shotgun I turned down was a very good offer, especially as it had just been annually cleaned by Kriegoff. For me, right now the Model 12 and the CZ 612 Pump Target both work
very well for me: I run 24s and 25s with them. With the CZ 612 target I ran the 2nd 25 in wobbles ever at a smaller range
I go to occasionally. The club wrote it permanently on their clubhouse chart, which amazed me. But I shot 21s and 22s when I tried the the Kriegoff on 16 yard singles. So I am an idiot savant, I dont have a clue.
BUT the Model 12 has a 30" barrel, feels completely different when I shoulder it, yet feels like it fits like an old glove.
Meanwhile the CZ 612 has a 32" ported barrel, costs $510 on the web, and feels less natural shouldering it but more intuitive sight picture wise when pulling the trigger. My question about both guns is why? or maybe why for me?
All I can add is that the CZ 612 opened up Trap for me and I probably would have quit otherwise after trying trap
with my CZ 712 and my Beretta A300, both 28" barrel field guns. I even had mid barrel beads put on them and still
couldnt shoot trap decently(18-22s) with them. I sold the Beretta to a friend who can shoot it a lot better than myself and kept the CZ. Meanwhile I am very good on sporting clays with the CZ 712 28". I have no idea why, and so I dont go around saying what others say, that I'm a good shot or 'good shooting". I really enjoy shooting well but if I get a compliment I
simply nod - because I know I dont know.
Any insight would be appreciated. It seems to not be quantifiable or defineable.
Thanks to you and all,
The Newbie.
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At my old club I knew a guy who had cz premier sporting o/u, was his backup gun for his kreighoff but seems like he would shoot it every other week, several thousand rounds down the pipe and no issues, almost inspired me to look into an all American trap combo...almost
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That's a bunch of B.S.!
I would love to watch you break 25 trap targets with your Rem. Model 12.
Since it was a .22, that never happened!
Your entire regurgitation is a worthless pile of manure.
Go find something else to do with your time, no one hear cares to listen to you B.S.!
MG
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This could be Randy Wakeman with a new sign on name .
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Oh God please ........NO!
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MG the guy made a mistake and recanted with it being a winchester we dont need tron to get his lawyers involved yet
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You state "... on occasion" - my local gun club bought some as rental guns and they did not stand up to the heavy usage. If you are going to use them on occasion you should be OK. Good Luck.
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As well as we don't need a lot of B.S. about the finest quality shot guns built, while making comparison to third word country garbage at cheap prices.
It's B.S. and those that believe in the concept, well let's just say they're lacking on mental capacity.
MG
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