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Velocity choices in the shell you shoot trap with?

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rbdjr

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Ok 1 oz or 1 1/8 oz shot amount, , but what about the velocity listing? I guess its best to shoot the highest velocity in the shot size your shooting? Target loads list 3 or 4 different velocities for each shot size?
1100, 1150, 1200, 1250, 1300?
Whats the best and I presume its what your gun shoots best? go pattern with each?
 
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#4 ·
Welcome to the forum.A few thoughts on this. And this is based on actual scientific testing, not "gun club porch talk wisdom" (which is usually wrong.)

  • Generally speaking, of the velocities you listed, your gun won't pattern any better or worse at those velocities (all else equal.)
  • Don't waste your time patterning unless you want to do it "RIGHT" (To find out what that means, look for my posts and posts by Neil Winston.)
  • Your gun doesn't much care how much shot you use, 1 ounce or 1-1/8 ounces, it'll pattern about the same percentage with both (all else equal.)
  • There is some evidence 7/8 ounce loads will result in slightly higher pattern percentages, all else equal, than 1 ounce or 1-1/8 ounce, but you pay a price because there are fewer pellets to start with.
  • Your gun doesn't care whether you shoot number 8-1/2 shot, number 8 shot, or number 7-1/2 shot (assuming all else equal) but the patterns will look more dense with the smaller shot because you are starting with more pellets.
  • PREMIUM ammo with HARD shot will pattern better (higher percentage of pellets in the kill zone down range) than cheap ammo with soft shot. This is indisputable.
  • Current premium brands are AA, STS/Nitro, Aguila. Sometimes Estate has hard shot. Federal Gold Medal Grand has hard shot but doesn't always pattern as well as the other brands.
  • Premium brands will give you more shot (total weight) than cheap ammo. Premium may be as much as 3% over 1-1/8 ounces. Cheap ammo may be as much as 5% less than 1-1/8 ounces.
  • SAAMI specifications allow a +/- 90 fps tolerance, lot to lot, on the muzzle velocity. The premium shells do better than that, but still may be +/- 35 fps from what is on the box. So don't put too much stock in that.

So what does this tell you? A little.

For singles, I don't think it matters that much. Hard shot, soft shot, 8-1/2 shot, 8 shot, 7-1/2 shot, good ammo, cheap ammo. It'll all work. Use what you want. Recoils sucks and high velocity is not needed for 16 yard targets, so go slow. 1145 is plenty. A Full choke is recommended. But some have good results with Improved Modified or Light Full, and some like Modified, but I don't.

For handicap, use 1-1/8 ounces of 7-1/2 at 1200 fps...and a full choke.

Good luck!!

And remember to have fun. This is a game after all!

As with all recommendations like this, it's worth every penny you paid for it.

Tim
 
#5 ·
Oh, the other thing is, right now, West Coast shot, which used to be the best choice, is only "moderately hard." Your best bet is STS shot, if you can find it.

Most all of the other brands are really soft.

You may be better off with premium factory ammo for long yardage handicap shooting right now.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 
#6 ·
The faster lead shot starts out at the muzzle the faster it slows down. The faster shot will always be faster but at longer distances it will slow down much more than the slower shot slows down.

From KPY Shotshell Ballistics.
1100 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 552 fps
1200 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 578 fps
1300 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 604 fps, has .86 energy and gets 1.02" of gel penetration at 40 yards.
1200 fps #7-1/2 shot at 40 yards is going 598 fps, has .99 energy and gets 1.10" of gel penetration at 40 yards.

The 1300 fps #8 shot started out 200 fps faster than the 1100 fps #8 shot, but at 40 yards it is only 52 fps faster.

The 1300 fps #8 shot started out 100 fps faster than the 1200 fps #7-1/2 shot, but at 40 yards it is only 6 fps faster than the slower starting #7-1/2 shot. The slower #7-1/2 shot has more energy and gets more penetration than the faster starting #8 shot.
 
#8 ·
ATA has velocity limits, based on the amount of shot. 1 1/8 oz at 1300 fps is not legal for ATA registered shoots.

SECTION XIII

STANDARDS FOR TRAPHOUSES, TARGETS, TARGET SETTING, GUNS AND AMMUNITION

G. GUNS AND AMMUNITION

A contestant cannot use:

3. Any load with a velocity greater than 1290 FPS (Feet Per Second) with maximum shot charge of 1 1/8 ounces, or 1325 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 1 ounce, or 1350 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 7/8 ounces or less, as measured in any individual shotshell. These velocities are maximum and no individual shotshell shall exceed these limits for the designated shot charge. In addition, no load containing more than 1 1/8 ounces or any shot larger than
Number 7 1/2 can be used. Shot charges are maximum and no charge may exceed the charge amount by more than 3%.
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
Thanks Tim for all the info, I am a newbie as Im sure you can tell by my questions, But I am a newbie that loves info and can never get enough.

Thanks Tim for all your valuable info.
Ray D
 
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#10 · (Edited)
derbyacresbob said:
The faster lead shot starts out at the muzzle the faster it slows down. The faster shot will always be faster but at longer distances it will slow down much more than the slower shot slows down.

From KPY Shotshell Ballistics.
1100 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 552 fps
1200 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 578 fps
1300 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 604 fps, has .86 energy and gets 1.02" of gel penetration at 40 yards.
1200 fps #7-1/2 shot at 40 yards is going 598 fps, has .99 energy and gets 1.10" of gel penetration at 40 yards.

The 1300 fps #8 shot started out 200 fps faster than the 1100 fps #8 shot, but at 40 yards it is only 52 fps faster.

The 1300 fps #8 shot started out 100 fps faster than the 1200 fps #7-1/2 shot, but at 40 yards it is only 6 fps faster than the slower starting #7-1/2 shot. The slower #7-1/2 shot has more energy and gets more penetration than the faster starting #8 shot.
Click to expand...
It's not how fast it's going when it gets to any given distance.
It is how long did it take to get there!
Faster shells get there quicker, hence less lead.
MG
 
#11 ·
mg1polo said:
Faster shells get there quicker, hence less lead.
Click to expand...
Technically true, but at 16 yards, you'd be hard pressed to be able to tell any difference. That is, if you point the gun exactly the same with an 1145 fps cartridge and a 1250 fps cartridge, you won't "miss behind the bird" with the slower cartridges.
 
#12 ·
derbyacresbob said:
The faster lead shot starts out at the muzzle the faster it slows down. The faster shot will always be faster but at longer distances it will slow down much more than the slower shot slows down.

From KPY Shotshell Ballistics.
1100 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 552 fps
1200 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 578 fps
1300 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 604 fps, has .86 energy and gets 1.02" of gel penetration at 40 yards.
1200 fps #7-1/2 shot at 40 yards is going 598 fps, has .99 energy and gets 1.10" of gel penetration at 40 yards.

The 1300 fps #8 shot started out 200 fps faster than the 1100 fps #8 shot, but at 40 yards it is only 52 fps faster.

The 1300 fps #8 shot started out 100 fps faster than the 1200 fps #7-1/2 shot, but at 40 yards it is only 6 fps faster than the slower starting #7-1/2 shot. The slower #7-1/2 shot has more energy and gets more penetration than the faster starting #8 shot.
Click to expand...
I'm not disagreeing with any of this, I'm just trying to figure out how it is relevant for trap shooting???
 
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#14 ·
timb99 said:
Technically true, but at 16 yards, you'd be hard pressed to be able to tell any difference. That is, if you point the gun exactly the same with an 1145 fps cartridge and a 1250 fps cartridge, you won't "miss behind the bird" with the slower cartridges.
Click to expand...
Tim, I'm in total 100% agreement with you.
That is the reason, that I shoot 1145 fps for 16's & both shots in doubles.
I do shoot 1255 or 1235 from the 27.
At longer handicap yardage, I see a distinct difference. I've tried 1145, 1200 & have substantially higher scores with the 1250's at the 27.
I know a few great shooters that perform very well with the slower speed shells, but that's NOT very common.
MG
 
#15 ·
mg1polo said:
At longer handicap yardage, I see a distinct difference.
Click to expand...
In my limited experience at the 26 yard line, I cannot seem to tell any difference in breaks, nor in my scores, shooting 1200 fps cartridges versus 1250 fps cartridges.

My shoulder most certainly can tell the difference though.

Which is why I am thinking 1200 fps is what I will use going forward!
 
#16 ·
timb99 said:
In my limited experience at the 26 yard line, I cannot seem to tell any difference in breaks, nor in my scores, shooting 1200 fps cartridges versus 1250 fps cartridges.

My shoulder most certainly can tell the difference though.

Which is why I am thinking 1200 fps is what I will use going forward!
Click to expand...
Maybe it's my Fat Ass Build?
For whatever reason, I feel no difference in recoil in any trap load,
1145 to 1255. I often participate in 500 bird a day marathons and have even done 500 pairs of doubles.
It's just never bothered me, physically or mentally.
Possibly my gun fits very well and the RAD in my stock could contribute, really don't know.
Even when shooting backups, I have a hell of a load for that game.
Hunting, my 1 1/8ths are loaded to 1585 fps.
Maybe I'm a speed freak.
MG
 
#17 ·
timb99 said:
I'm not disagreeing with any of this, I'm just trying to figure out how it is relevant for trap shooting???
Click to expand...
Many people that shoot shotguns have no idea how fast round lead shot slows down after leaving the muzzle.
The difference in time to 40 yards between the 1200 fps #8 shot and the 1300 fps #8 shot is only .008 seconds.

1300 fps #8 shot loses over half of it's speed at 40 yards, at 40 yards it is going 604 fps that is 696 fps slower than it started out.

A 40 mph crossing target will travel 5.6" in .008 seconds. It probable takes about a 7 ft to 9 ft lead to hit a 40 mph crossing target at 40 yards away.

Trap targets are going away at slight angles, so the lead change on a trap target when the shot flight times is only .008 seconds may only be 2" to 4.5".
 
#18 · (Edited)
rbdjr said:
Ok 1 oz or 1 1/8 oz shot amount, , but what about the velocity listing? I guess its best to shoot the highest velocity in the shot size your shooting? Target loads list 3 or 4 different velocities for each shot size?
1100, 1150, 1200, 1250, 1300?
Whats the best and I presume its what your gun shoots best? go pattern with each?
Click to expand...
Hopefully, you've figured out by now your guess is not entirely accurate. There is a sliding scale between velocity and recoil, the more velocity the more the recoil. It's been shown most shooters do better with lower recoil ammunition. Also, generally, ceteris parabus, there is a sliding scale between velocity and the pressure the load produces. The higher the velocity, the higher the pressure. Higher pressure loads burn more cleanly and are more consistent than lower pressure loads. Another factoid, to get a lower velocity load with a higher pressure you need a faster burning powder. Reloading is like anything else, there is no free lunch: You change one aspect of a load, other aspects will change as well, both in the performance of the load and the quality of the load (stack height, crimp, etc.).
 
#19 · (Edited)
mg1polo said:
Maybe it's my Fat Ass Build?
MG
Click to expand...
And the build of the person shooting the gun has a lot to do with how recoil is "felt." I'm guessing there is a big difference in recoil perception if you are built like a member of the Lollipop Guild, like Timb99, or built like mg1polo, and myself (thinking of changing my nom de screen to "Lar Dass"). There is a lot more [m]ass to spread the recoil over.
 
#20 ·
derbyacresbob said:
The faster lead shot starts out at the muzzle the faster it slows down. The faster shot will always be faster but at longer distances it will slow down much more than the slower shot slows down.

From KPY Shotshell Ballistics.
1100 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 552 fps
1200 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 578 fps
1300 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 604 fps, has .86 energy and gets 1.02" of gel penetration at 40 yards.
1200 fps #7-1/2 shot at 40 yards is going 598 fps, has .99 energy and gets 1.10" of gel penetration at 40 yards.

The 1300 fps #8 shot started out 200 fps faster than the 1100 fps #8 shot, but at 40 yards it is only 52 fps faster.

The 1300 fps #8 shot started out 100 fps faster than the 1200 fps #7-1/2 shot, but at 40 yards it is only 6 fps faster than the slower starting #7-1/2 shot. The slower #7-1/2 shot has more energy and gets more penetration than the faster starting #8 shot.
Click to expand...
OTE="derbyacresbob, post: 8093651, member: 20324"]The faster lead shot starts out at the muzzle the faster it slows down. The faster shot will always be faster but at longer distances it will slow down much more than the slower shot slows down.

From KPY Shotshell Ballistics.
1100 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 552 fps
1200 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 578 fps
1300 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 604 fps, has .86 energy and gets 1.02" of gel penetration at 40 yards.
1200 fps #7-1/2 shot at 40 yards is going 598 fps, has .99 energy and gets 1.10" of gel penetration at 40 yards.

The 1300 fps #8 shot started out 200 fps faster than the 1100 fps #8 shot, but at 40 yards it is only 52 fps faster.

The 1300 fps #8 shot started out 100 fps faster than the 1200 fps #7-1/2 shot, but at 40 yards it is only 6 fps faster than the slow
derbyacresbob said:
The faster lead shot starts out at the muzzle the faster it slows down. The faster shot will always be faster but at longer distances it will slow down much more than the slower shot slows down.

From KPY Shotshell Ballistics.
1100 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 552 fps
1200 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 578 fps
1300 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 604 fps, has .86 energy and gets 1.02" of gel penetration at 40 yards.
1200 fps #7-1/2 shot at 40 yards is going 598 fps, has .99 energy and gets 1.10" of gel penetration at 40 yards.

The 1300 fps #8 shot started out 200 fps faster than the 1100 fps #8 shot, but at 40 yards it is only 52 fps faster.

The 1300 fps #8 shot started out 100 fps faster than the 1200 fps #7-1/2 shot, but at 40 yards it is only 6 fps faster than the slower starting #7-1/2 shot. The slower #7-1/2 shot has more energy and gets more penetration than the fas
derbyacresbob said:
Many people that shoot shotguns have no idea how fast round lead shot slows down after leaving the muzzle.
The difference in time to 40 yards between the 1200 fps #8 shot and the 1300 fps #8 shot is only .008 seconds.

1300 fps #8 shot loses over half of it's speed at 40 yards, at 40 yards it is going 604 fps that is 696 fps slower than it started out.

A 40 mph crossing target will travel 5.6" in .008 seconds. It probable takes about a 7 ft to 9 ft lead to hit a 40 mph crossing target at 40 yards away.

Trap targets are going away at slight angles, so the lead change on a trap target when the shot flight times is only .008 seconds may only be 2" to 4.5".
Click to expand...
how fast does the target slow down
derbyacresbob said:
The faster lead shot starts out at the muzzle the faster it slows down. The faster shot will always be faster but at longer distances it will slow down much more than the slower shot slows down.

From KPY Shotshell Ballistics.
1100 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 552 fps
1200 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 578 fps
1300 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 604 fps, has .86 energy and gets 1.02" of gel penetration at 40 yards.
1200 fps #7-1/2 shot at 40 yards is going 598 fps, has .99 energy and gets 1.10" of gel penetration at 40 yards.

The 1300 fps #8 shot started out 200 fps faster than the 1100 fps #8 shot, but at 40 yards it is only 52 fps faster.

The 1300 fps #8 shot started out 100 fps faster than the 1200 fps #7-1/2 shot, but at 40 yards it is only 6 fps faster than the slower starting #7-1/2 shot. The slower #7-1/2 shot has more energy and gets more penetration than the faster starting #8 shot.
Click to expand...
derbyacresbob said:
The faster lead shot starts out at the muzzle the faster it slows down. The faster shot will always be faster but at longer distances it will slow down much more than the slower shot slows down.

From KPY Shotshell Ballistics.
1100 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 552 fps
1200 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 578 fps
1300 fps #8 shot at 40 yards is going 604 fps, has .86 energy and gets 1.02" of gel penetration at 40 yards.
1200 fps #7-1/2 shot at 40 yards is going 598 fps, has .99 energy and gets 1.10" of gel penetration at 40 yards.

The 1300 fps #8 shot started out 200 fps faster than the 1100 fps #8 shot, but at 40 yards it is only 52 fps faster.

The 1300 fps #8 shot started out 100 fps faster than the 1200 fps #7-1/2 shot, but at 40 yards it is only 6 fps faster than the slower starting #7-1/2 shot. The slower #7-1/2 shot has more energy and gets more penetration than the faster starting #8 shot.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
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