My understanding from the rule book this load is legal due to not being over 1290, but the 3 1/4 drams does that make it illegal. Thanks everybody
kolar412
Factory or reload?
from the rule book
3. Any load with a velocity greater than 1290 FPS (Feet Per Second) with maximum shot charge of 1 1/8 ounces, or 1325 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 1 ounce, or 1350 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 7/8 ounces or less, as measured in any individual shotshell. These velocities are maximum and no individual shotshell shall exceed these limits for the designated shot charge. In addition, no load containing more than 1 1/8 ounces or any shot larger than Number 7 1/2 can be used. Shot charges are maximum and no charge may exceed the charge amount by more than 3%. Steel shot in Number 7 will be acceptable as long as velocity criteria are the same as for lead shot shells.
link to online rulebook
https://shootata.com/Portals/0/pdf/ata_rulebook_web.pdf
from the rule book
3. Any load with a velocity greater than 1290 FPS (Feet Per Second) with maximum shot charge of 1 1/8 ounces, or 1325 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 1 ounce, or 1350 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 7/8 ounces or less, as measured in any individual shotshell. These velocities are maximum and no individual shotshell shall exceed these limits for the designated shot charge. In addition, no load containing more than 1 1/8 ounces or any shot larger than Number 7 1/2 can be used. Shot charges are maximum and no charge may exceed the charge amount by more than 3%. Steel shot in Number 7 will be acceptable as long as velocity criteria are the same as for lead shot shells.
link to online rulebook
https://shootata.com/Portals/0/pdf/ata_rulebook_web.pdf
Not to open a can of worms but...
Nobody will challenge you with this load, if it is a factory load. They will look at the label and say, "it's under 1290 fps so it's legal."
Except, in reality, it might not be.
I'm assuming these are USA-manufactured factory shells. If so, USA cartridge manufacturers voluntarily follow SAAMI guidelines.
And since SAAMI allows a +/- 90 fps tolerance on the stated muzzle velocity on the box, it is possible that there are cartridges in that box that have a 1345 fps muzzle velocity.
But nobody is likely to challenge factory shells, and furthermore, there is nothing in the rule book that tells you how you are supposed to check the muzzle velocity of a shell if a challenge is made.
So this is a long way of saying that the shells you are using may or may not actually be legal shells, but you're safe to use them.
Nobody will challenge you with this load, if it is a factory load. They will look at the label and say, "it's under 1290 fps so it's legal."
Except, in reality, it might not be.
I'm assuming these are USA-manufactured factory shells. If so, USA cartridge manufacturers voluntarily follow SAAMI guidelines.
And since SAAMI allows a +/- 90 fps tolerance on the stated muzzle velocity on the box, it is possible that there are cartridges in that box that have a 1345 fps muzzle velocity.
But nobody is likely to challenge factory shells, and furthermore, there is nothing in the rule book that tells you how you are supposed to check the muzzle velocity of a shell if a challenge is made.
So this is a long way of saying that the shells you are using may or may not actually be legal shells, but you're safe to use them.
Now I know what some of you are going to say, but I found it is useless to argue with the ruling class of a gun club. Some clubs still have their rules prohibiting any shot shell bigger than the old 3 dram, 1-1/8, 7-1/2 shot size on their trap ranges, even though ATA no long has that rule. Why? Because it is their club, their rules, they will tell you it is a safety issue or an encroachment issue. I happen to be a member of a club that still holds on to this old rule, I am telling you fact.
So while it may be legal for ATA, make sure it is legal at the facility you are shooting the ATA event.
So while it may be legal for ATA, make sure it is legal at the facility you are shooting the ATA event.
I have seen folks shoot these and no one bats an eye. 1&1/8 ounces of 7&1/2 @ 1275 FPS.
I have never heard of anyone challenging factory loads at an ATA shoot.
In fact I have only seen 1 or 2 challenges ever of reloads and none in the last 20 years.
Back then I think they identified the powder and weighed it and the shot.
But I am going from memory.
Its All good
West
I have never heard of anyone challenging factory loads at an ATA shoot.
In fact I have only seen 1 or 2 challenges ever of reloads and none in the last 20 years.
Back then I think they identified the powder and weighed it and the shot.
But I am going from memory.
Its All good
West
Attachments
"Shoot Management, ATA official(s) or any contestant may challenge the load of any other contestant.
Any challenge shall be initiated so as to not disrupt the harmony of the shoot or interfere with other contestants not involved with the challenge.
On receipt of a challenge management or ATA official(s) shall obtain a shell or shells from the challenged party, and if after examination, management or ATA
official(s) find the contestant violated the ATA rule, he/she maybe disqualified.
Any such initiated challenges, determined to be abusive in nature, will be referred to the ATA Executive Committee for disciplinary action."
I feel pretty safe shooting factory loads.
I would consider challenging factory loads to be abusive in nature and push to have the issue referred to the EC.
I don't think the good folks @ Winchester or Federal would appreciate it either.
They might even question the ATA's method of testing said shell(s).
It could get litigious.
Its All Good
West
Any challenge shall be initiated so as to not disrupt the harmony of the shoot or interfere with other contestants not involved with the challenge.
On receipt of a challenge management or ATA official(s) shall obtain a shell or shells from the challenged party, and if after examination, management or ATA
official(s) find the contestant violated the ATA rule, he/she maybe disqualified.
Any such initiated challenges, determined to be abusive in nature, will be referred to the ATA Executive Committee for disciplinary action."
I feel pretty safe shooting factory loads.
I would consider challenging factory loads to be abusive in nature and push to have the issue referred to the EC.
I don't think the good folks @ Winchester or Federal would appreciate it either.
They might even question the ATA's method of testing said shell(s).
It could get litigious.
Its All Good
West
Why does anyone want to shoot the really hot loads anyhow? I go ouch just thinking about them.
What Tim said
Shotshell pressure and velocity testing 2015
https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/SAAMI-Z299.2-Shotshell-Approved-2015-08-31.pdf
Ammunition tested subsequent to manufacture using equipment and procedures conforming to these guidelines can be expected to produce velocities within a tolerance of ±90 fps of the tabulated values.
p. 6 All lead loads fired in 30” test barrels with a choke constriction of .031 ±.005; p. 9 non-lead .005” ±.005
p. 8 Velocity is measure at 3 feet (CIP shells are measured at 2.5 meters)
p. 84 Transducer mounting port in the receiver collar of the test barrel is at 1 inch
1) Pellet size variations allow for +/- one pellet size (+/- .010" dia.) of variation in game loads.
A No. 6 (.110") game load could contain pellets ranging in size from No. 5 (.120") down to No. 7 (.100").
On target loads it allows for +/- ½ pellet size (+/- .005" dia.) of variation; a No. 8 (.090") target load could contain pellets ranging in size from No. 7 1/2 (.095") down to No. 8 1/2 (.085").
2) Load weight variations can range from +4% to -7% in game loads and +3% to -5% in target loads; about +/- 1/8 oz. of variation allowed per shell.
3) Pellet counts per ounce can vary by +/- 10% for both game and target loads.
4) Load velocity can vary by +/- 90 fps for both game and target loads.
5) Load pressure
Maximum average pressure for 2 3/4" and 3” shotgun shells will be 11,500 PSI +/- 900 psi, with some maximum extreme variability not to exceed an uber-max of 12,500 psi +/-900 psi
6) Proof loads:
If a manufacturer uses a SAAMI proof loads, then the gun will be proofed by a lot of no less than 10 shots of ammo loaded to a maximum proof pressure of 20,500 psi +/- 900 – 4600 psi, or uber max of 25,100 PSI; and, will be similarly a MINIMUM average proof pressure of 19,000 PSI +/- 900 – 4600 psi for an absolute minimum proof of 14,400 PSI.
Shotshell pressure and velocity testing 2015
https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/SAAMI-Z299.2-Shotshell-Approved-2015-08-31.pdf
Ammunition tested subsequent to manufacture using equipment and procedures conforming to these guidelines can be expected to produce velocities within a tolerance of ±90 fps of the tabulated values.
p. 6 All lead loads fired in 30” test barrels with a choke constriction of .031 ±.005; p. 9 non-lead .005” ±.005
p. 8 Velocity is measure at 3 feet (CIP shells are measured at 2.5 meters)
p. 84 Transducer mounting port in the receiver collar of the test barrel is at 1 inch
1) Pellet size variations allow for +/- one pellet size (+/- .010" dia.) of variation in game loads.
A No. 6 (.110") game load could contain pellets ranging in size from No. 5 (.120") down to No. 7 (.100").
On target loads it allows for +/- ½ pellet size (+/- .005" dia.) of variation; a No. 8 (.090") target load could contain pellets ranging in size from No. 7 1/2 (.095") down to No. 8 1/2 (.085").
2) Load weight variations can range from +4% to -7% in game loads and +3% to -5% in target loads; about +/- 1/8 oz. of variation allowed per shell.
3) Pellet counts per ounce can vary by +/- 10% for both game and target loads.
4) Load velocity can vary by +/- 90 fps for both game and target loads.
5) Load pressure
Maximum average pressure for 2 3/4" and 3” shotgun shells will be 11,500 PSI +/- 900 psi, with some maximum extreme variability not to exceed an uber-max of 12,500 psi +/-900 psi
6) Proof loads:
If a manufacturer uses a SAAMI proof loads, then the gun will be proofed by a lot of no less than 10 shots of ammo loaded to a maximum proof pressure of 20,500 psi +/- 900 – 4600 psi, or uber max of 25,100 PSI; and, will be similarly a MINIMUM average proof pressure of 19,000 PSI +/- 900 – 4600 psi for an absolute minimum proof of 14,400 PSI.
It’s been nearly 100 years since smokeless powder has been commonly used in shotguns. I say it’s time to drop the dram equivalent on all shotgun shells. It confuses many shooters and has absolutely no value today. Printing the weight of the shot and velocity is the only thing that matters.
The ATA wording pertaining to velocity is also very poorly worded. With ammo varying +/- 90 FPS it’s dumb to say no shell can exceed the limit of 1290 FPS with 1 1/8oz. of shot. Many factory shells have an average of 1235 or 1250 and the reality of the entire box being over the limit is entirely possible.
The ATA wording pertaining to velocity is also very poorly worded. With ammo varying +/- 90 FPS it’s dumb to say no shell can exceed the limit of 1290 FPS with 1 1/8oz. of shot. Many factory shells have an average of 1235 or 1250 and the reality of the entire box being over the limit is entirely possible.
Let’s hope the ATA is actually smart enough to listen. I think if they regulated only the amount of shot and the size it would work. I can’t see where speed would matter enough to make a substantial difference. If some moron thinks 1500 FPS is better then by all means let them punish themselves and have fun. Nice letter Tim, and I’d be interested to see a response if you get one.
So I am new to the trap shooting game, 4 years now so you long time shooters could maybe tell me when was the last time that you were at a club that actually had a certified chronograph operational to test the velocity of someones shells should there be a challenge, I posed this question to one of our older shooters that has just past the 500,000 registered target maker and he said he had never seen it, my take is that if someone wants to load 3 1/4 or 3 1/2 dram 1 1/8 oz and kick the poop out of himself through 300 a day then have at it buddy, by day 2 he would probably be flinching so bad he couldn't hit the back of the trap house, not to mention black and blue
There's no such thing as a "certified chronograph." The closest would be an Oehler System 84 ($12,000 plus support equipment of similar cost or more) which had been zeroed in using SAAMI reference ammunition. It would take a year a so to put the machine together and house it, another year to learn to use it.
Trapshooters have simply no idea how different a SAAMI approved chronograph is from the one they get off the internet.
You can get very close with a consumer chronograph if you use an open choke and follow this.
Chronographing Shotguns
If you don't you will have no idea about your shot speed.
You can also look at the shellbox or reloading manual and do just fine.
Neil
Trapshooters have simply no idea how different a SAAMI approved chronograph is from the one they get off the internet.
You can get very close with a consumer chronograph if you use an open choke and follow this.
Chronographing Shotguns
If you don't you will have no idea about your shot speed.
You can also look at the shellbox or reloading manual and do just fine.
Neil
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