My understanding from the rule book this load is legal due to not being over 1290, but the 3 1/4 drams does that make it illegal. Thanks everybody
3 1/4 dram 1 1/8 1255 FPS legal
kolar412
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Factory or reload?
from the rule book
3. Any load with a velocity greater than 1290 FPS (Feet Per Second) with maximum shot charge of 1 1/8 ounces, or 1325 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 1 ounce, or 1350 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 7/8 ounces or less, as measured in any individual shotshell. These velocities are maximum and no individual shotshell shall exceed these limits for the designated shot charge. In addition, no load containing more than 1 1/8 ounces or any shot larger than Number 7 1/2 can be used. Shot charges are maximum and no charge may exceed the charge amount by more than 3%. Steel shot in Number 7 will be acceptable as long as velocity criteria are the same as for lead shot shells.
link to online rulebook
https://shootata.com/Portals/0/pdf/ata_rulebook_web.pdf
from the rule book
3. Any load with a velocity greater than 1290 FPS (Feet Per Second) with maximum shot charge of 1 1/8 ounces, or 1325 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 1 ounce, or 1350 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 7/8 ounces or less, as measured in any individual shotshell. These velocities are maximum and no individual shotshell shall exceed these limits for the designated shot charge. In addition, no load containing more than 1 1/8 ounces or any shot larger than Number 7 1/2 can be used. Shot charges are maximum and no charge may exceed the charge amount by more than 3%. Steel shot in Number 7 will be acceptable as long as velocity criteria are the same as for lead shot shells.
link to online rulebook
https://shootata.com/Portals/0/pdf/ata_rulebook_web.pdf
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Not to open a can of worms but...
Nobody will challenge you with this load, if it is a factory load. They will look at the label and say, "it's under 1290 fps so it's legal."
Except, in reality, it might not be.
I'm assuming these are USA-manufactured factory shells. If so, USA cartridge manufacturers voluntarily follow SAAMI guidelines.
And since SAAMI allows a +/- 90 fps tolerance on the stated muzzle velocity on the box, it is possible that there are cartridges in that box that have a 1345 fps muzzle velocity.
But nobody is likely to challenge factory shells, and furthermore, there is nothing in the rule book that tells you how you are supposed to check the muzzle velocity of a shell if a challenge is made.
So this is a long way of saying that the shells you are using may or may not actually be legal shells, but you're safe to use them.
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50,530 Posts
Now I know what some of you are going to say, but I found it is useless to argue with the ruling class of a gun club. Some clubs still have their rules prohibiting any shot shell bigger than the old 3 dram, 1-1/8, 7-1/2 shot size on their trap ranges, even though ATA no long has that rule. Why? Because it is their club, their rules, they will tell you it is a safety issue or an encroachment issue. I happen to be a member of a club that still holds on to this old rule, I am telling you fact.
So while it may be legal for ATA, make sure it is legal at the facility you are shooting the ATA event.
So while it may be legal for ATA, make sure it is legal at the facility you are shooting the ATA event.
I have seen folks shoot these and no one bats an eye. 1&1/8 ounces of 7&1/2 @ 1275 FPS.
I have never heard of anyone challenging factory loads at an ATA shoot.
In fact I have only seen 1 or 2 challenges ever of reloads and none in the last 20 years.
Back then I think they identified the powder and weighed it and the shot.
But I am going from memory.
Its All good
West
I have never heard of anyone challenging factory loads at an ATA shoot.
In fact I have only seen 1 or 2 challenges ever of reloads and none in the last 20 years.
Back then I think they identified the powder and weighed it and the shot.
But I am going from memory.
Its All good
West
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All that is true. So thinking along those lines, the Rem Nitro 27 that everyone speaks so highly of (and I'm not opposed to shooting a box or two myself on occasion) with a stated velocity of 1235 on the box, or the AA Super Handicap (Silver Bullets that are now grey) with a stated velocity of 1250 or the Fed Grand Handicap with the same 1250 FPS velocity, might all contain shells that are at 1325 to 1340 FPS with a 1.125 oz payload. Would be interesting to chrono a box of each of the above to see what actual velocity is for individual shells.
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10,793 Posts
They could also be 90 fps slower than listed, and the ammo would still be shipped.
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Neil, in the past, did just this. He found that the "Big 3" actually have a smaller span of +/- on the actual muzzle velocity than SAAMI allows.
I suspect that this is due to internal Quality Assurance and/or the Marketing department's requirements.
If I recall correctly, for the premium stuff (AA's, STS and Nitro's, and back when he did the test it was for Gold Medals) the span was more like +/- 40 fps.
So those gray AA's that rattle my teeth may actually be right at the 1290 fps limit, or may be closer to 1200 fps.
At the end of the day, we mere mortals can't tell the difference...
"Shoot Management, ATA official(s) or any contestant may challenge the load of any other contestant.
Any challenge shall be initiated so as to not disrupt the harmony of the shoot or interfere with other contestants not involved with the challenge.
On receipt of a challenge management or ATA official(s) shall obtain a shell or shells from the challenged party, and if after examination, management or ATA
official(s) find the contestant violated the ATA rule, he/she maybe disqualified.
Any such initiated challenges, determined to be abusive in nature, will be referred to the ATA Executive Committee for disciplinary action."
I feel pretty safe shooting factory loads.
I would consider challenging factory loads to be abusive in nature and push to have the issue referred to the EC.
I don't think the good folks @ Winchester or Federal would appreciate it either.
They might even question the ATA's method of testing said shell(s).
It could get litigious.
Its All Good
West
Any challenge shall be initiated so as to not disrupt the harmony of the shoot or interfere with other contestants not involved with the challenge.
On receipt of a challenge management or ATA official(s) shall obtain a shell or shells from the challenged party, and if after examination, management or ATA
official(s) find the contestant violated the ATA rule, he/she maybe disqualified.
Any such initiated challenges, determined to be abusive in nature, will be referred to the ATA Executive Committee for disciplinary action."
I feel pretty safe shooting factory loads.
I would consider challenging factory loads to be abusive in nature and push to have the issue referred to the EC.
I don't think the good folks @ Winchester or Federal would appreciate it either.
They might even question the ATA's method of testing said shell(s).
It could get litigious.
Its All Good
West
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True
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Also true. They follow the Chronographing standards in the SAAMI standard. (ANSI/SAAMI Z299.2, I think the current standard is 2015.) It's available on the internet if you look hard enough.
The chronographs they use (and incidentally, Neil has one) are "Induction Chronographs." Not the usual "Light Sensor" chronographs commonly used by reloaders for rifle, and sometimes shotgun.
I think the standard does allow light sensor chronographs but I am pretty sure the cartridge manufacturers all use Oehler inductive units.
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14,750 Posts
It would never get that far. The ONLY thing the ATA could possibly test is the weight of the shot charge and the size of the pellets. And even the size of the pellets is dubious since they're never perfectly spherical..
There is nothing in the ATA rule book that prescribes how one would test muzzle velocity.
I have been trying and trying to get someone in the rules committee to listen to me on this subject, but so far, it's just howling at the moon.
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7,311 Posts
What Tim said
Shotshell pressure and velocity testing 2015
https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/SAAMI-Z299.2-Shotshell-Approved-2015-08-31.pdf
Ammunition tested subsequent to manufacture using equipment and procedures conforming to these guidelines can be expected to produce velocities within a tolerance of ±90 fps of the tabulated values.
p. 6 All lead loads fired in 30” test barrels with a choke constriction of .031 ±.005; p. 9 non-lead .005” ±.005
p. 8 Velocity is measure at 3 feet (CIP shells are measured at 2.5 meters)
p. 84 Transducer mounting port in the receiver collar of the test barrel is at 1 inch
1) Pellet size variations allow for +/- one pellet size (+/- .010" dia.) of variation in game loads.
A No. 6 (.110") game load could contain pellets ranging in size from No. 5 (.120") down to No. 7 (.100").
On target loads it allows for +/- ½ pellet size (+/- .005" dia.) of variation; a No. 8 (.090") target load could contain pellets ranging in size from No. 7 1/2 (.095") down to No. 8 1/2 (.085").
2) Load weight variations can range from +4% to -7% in game loads and +3% to -5% in target loads; about +/- 1/8 oz. of variation allowed per shell.
3) Pellet counts per ounce can vary by +/- 10% for both game and target loads.
4) Load velocity can vary by +/- 90 fps for both game and target loads.
5) Load pressure
Maximum average pressure for 2 3/4" and 3” shotgun shells will be 11,500 PSI +/- 900 psi, with some maximum extreme variability not to exceed an uber-max of 12,500 psi +/-900 psi
6) Proof loads:
If a manufacturer uses a SAAMI proof loads, then the gun will be proofed by a lot of no less than 10 shots of ammo loaded to a maximum proof pressure of 20,500 psi +/- 900 – 4600 psi, or uber max of 25,100 PSI; and, will be similarly a MINIMUM average proof pressure of 19,000 PSI +/- 900 – 4600 psi for an absolute minimum proof of 14,400 PSI.
Shotshell pressure and velocity testing 2015
https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/SAAMI-Z299.2-Shotshell-Approved-2015-08-31.pdf
Ammunition tested subsequent to manufacture using equipment and procedures conforming to these guidelines can be expected to produce velocities within a tolerance of ±90 fps of the tabulated values.
p. 6 All lead loads fired in 30” test barrels with a choke constriction of .031 ±.005; p. 9 non-lead .005” ±.005
p. 8 Velocity is measure at 3 feet (CIP shells are measured at 2.5 meters)
p. 84 Transducer mounting port in the receiver collar of the test barrel is at 1 inch
1) Pellet size variations allow for +/- one pellet size (+/- .010" dia.) of variation in game loads.
A No. 6 (.110") game load could contain pellets ranging in size from No. 5 (.120") down to No. 7 (.100").
On target loads it allows for +/- ½ pellet size (+/- .005" dia.) of variation; a No. 8 (.090") target load could contain pellets ranging in size from No. 7 1/2 (.095") down to No. 8 1/2 (.085").
2) Load weight variations can range from +4% to -7% in game loads and +3% to -5% in target loads; about +/- 1/8 oz. of variation allowed per shell.
3) Pellet counts per ounce can vary by +/- 10% for both game and target loads.
4) Load velocity can vary by +/- 90 fps for both game and target loads.
5) Load pressure
Maximum average pressure for 2 3/4" and 3” shotgun shells will be 11,500 PSI +/- 900 psi, with some maximum extreme variability not to exceed an uber-max of 12,500 psi +/-900 psi
6) Proof loads:
If a manufacturer uses a SAAMI proof loads, then the gun will be proofed by a lot of no less than 10 shots of ammo loaded to a maximum proof pressure of 20,500 psi +/- 900 – 4600 psi, or uber max of 25,100 PSI; and, will be similarly a MINIMUM average proof pressure of 19,000 PSI +/- 900 – 4600 psi for an absolute minimum proof of 14,400 PSI.
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This is the one I always like to quote when people say "my gun likes 8's," or "my gun likes 7-1/2's"
The label might say 8's but the pellets are probably an unequal mix of 8-1/2's, 8's, and 7-1/2's!!!
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8,243 Posts
My thoughts exactly. I don't enjoy recoil that much.
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Perceived advantage breaking long yardage handicap targets (25 yards and greater.)
Real or not, I don't know.
Phil Kiner has stated on many occasions that higher velocity cartridges are an advantage at long yardage handicap.
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