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Stats 2 hole targets relating to Grand Slams

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#21 ·
A few more things. Eighty-four percent of shooter average under 90 in handicap. That doesn't look too easy for most to me.

Winning handicap scores in the Grand American were about the same in 2007 as in 1978.

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Winning scores at the Minnesota State shoot were about the same in 2007 as 1978.

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And doubles at the Grand look harder!

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The big change I see - and Jerry Hauser has documented - is there are +a lot_ more very good shooters at long yardage than there used to be.


Neil
 
#22 ·
This past weekend just for the fun of it without anyone knowing it, I set the trap to throw 3 hole targets and 50 yards. I laughed all day watching people shoot 20-23 that normally shoot 25's and that included me. I did fess up after we were done and bought everyone a beer to calm their nerves. LOL
 
#23 ·
Neil, I totally agree with what you say concerning the big three's loads not being 1200 FPS since I shot my first registered targets in 1970. Reloaders however were held to a different standard in speed of their loads.

Are you saying our rule book didn't require reloaders to keep their reloads at 1200 FPS during the early 70s to ??? If not, who came up with the 1200 FPS wording used as gospel here? I will find an old rule book just to satisfy my memory of shell restrictions placed on reloads and the target angles.

Hap
 
#24 ·
There are two kinds of Grand Slams. One type is achieved with a lot of luck. Others are very skillfully shot by those who have fabulous skill and remarkable committment. There's a big gap in between.
 
#25 ·
Hap, my oldest rulebook is 1983 and it says 3-dram, not 1200 fps. My guess is that the 1200 fps we both read here all the time was just made up. Happens all the time. Especially here. Look at those scores I posted - way back to 1960 for Minnesota, and the read all the fantastic claims about easy targets now and see how, when the data is presented, that the winning scores haven't changed at all. This will have no effect on the argument since facts to these guys are irrelevant. Claim anything; who will know?

Neil
 
#26 ·
"One type is achieved with a lot of luck"

That is being pretty lucky seeing as how less than 3% of shooters ever get even one of the legs.
 
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#27 ·
Gary Bryant,

Two hole targets have been around for a long time. A 900 target shoot off has been done once. Since two hole targets has there ever even been anything close to that? Wasn't the longest before that 575? Two people in history have shot a 900 target shootoff. This is not proof that the targets are "candy" targets as you call them.

Leo and Foster shot great. I don't know how you can justify saying that they only shot that because they were thrown two hole targets. They are two of the top singles shooters in the ATA. This wasn't a local club shoot, there was a lot on the line. Cleary there was some added incentive. Both of them obviously stepped up their shooting under the circumstances.

Were you there? Did you see them shooting? The way they were shooting, I'm not so sure they would have missed with three hole targets either.

Pat Lamont
 
#28 ·
Neil, I think the 1200 FPS wording came from was the old black powder standard of a 3dram 1-1/8th ounce load being 1200 FPS. I recall that illegal loads would be frowned on in ATA shooting with hot loads exceding the dram limit. Maybe we as reloaders were duped by the wording and not velocity. Wouldn't be the first time or the last.

Hap
 
#29 ·
While I agree entirely, Hap, I will point out that while you cite 1200 fps as "wording" I've never found any such written wording. Sure, I heard it all the time, but I never _read_ it.

Neil
 
#30 ·
I should have read my post again before hitting submit!

"Maybe we as reloaders were duped by the wording and not velocity."

It was meant to read;

Maybe we as reloaders were duped by the wording, max dram equivalent and not velocity.

Hap
 
#31 ·
Gary Bryant - The data you presented is not proof. At the very best it is a simple correlation. A correlation is not proof. I also fail to understand that because two shooters had an impressive shoot off at the Grand last year, that the other 35,000 shooters are shooting "candy targets". However, I do hope you are correct with regard to me and I find the targets very easy at the Southern Grand in a couple of weeks. But they were not too easy last month at the Dixie Grand.

I agree that wider angles are more difficult and result in lower scores. I am not convinced that more difficult targets and lower scores are better for our sport.

Pat Ireland
 
#32 ·
I know this thread is already too long and the dead horse has been beaten a few times....but..

Personally I'd like to shoot at more difficult targets (60 yds. minimum and 60 mph) with wider angles... but for the average shooter this would send the fragile egos into the dumper...which would result in a decline in shooter attendence.

I'd rather have a lower score shooting at more difficult targets than what we presently have.

Curt
 
#33 ·
Get real guys! The three-hole angle was virtually meaningless to most of the earlier top shooters as most were also professional trap readers. Once the "best kept secret" was finally let out they put interrupters on those old Western hand-set machines.

I'll further enlighten us to the fact one of the finest trapshooters in the 60's was also a master trap reader. In those days you pretty much had the option of shooting the known hard angle or straightening it out!!
 
#34 ·
Neil, in your comparison of scores that won the trophy and/or event between 2007 and 1978 leaves out how many there were of each score shot in each respective event. I believe that is where the big difference is.

Seems I recall that in recent years, 98's fail to get into the shootoffs in some of the Grand handicaps because there were enough 100's and 99's to fill the 15 or more trophy spots. I don't believe this was the case back in the 70's.
 
#35 ·
grnberetcj

"Personally I'd like to shoot at more difficult targets (60 yds. minimum and 60 mph) with wider angles... but for the average shooter this would send the fragile egos into the dumper"

Curt while I have no objection to you shooting what ever you wish and if you do I wish you well.

I will not however agree or support what you wish to shoot as what everyone should shoot just because it is what you want.

With that being said why do those that feel that they have the right to propose changes that meet their agenda what about those that do not share your and others desires about a drastic change in target presentation.

As far as 3 hole targets are concerned the rule now is for 2 hole targets not 3 hole when 3 hole were supposed to be the minimum they could not get the clubs to throw them so what is so hard to except about the fact that the majority don't seem to want them.

In their never ending attempts to get what they have deemed the save all of trap shooting to fit their agenda. They come up with one set of figures after another that prove absolutely nothing other than the ATA has a rich history.

Bob Lawless
 
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Discussion starter · #36 ·
Neil Winston maybe the 2 hole was around in 1982, but was shot mostly on the west coast, it worked it's way gradually to the east coast, and it took a while for the shooters to get to the point of making a GRAND SLAM.

Neal Causby made a point and it was the same point I brought up to you numerous months ago, the number of shooters breaking higher scores, a 97 at the grand in hdcp. won't even get you to a shoot off, most often the 100s and 99s shoot off for the top 20 places.

If that is not enough to wake you up to 2 hole targets I don't know what will.

according to SAAMI and all manufacturers of shells in the 50s through the middle 70s boxes were marked 3 dram Eq. 3 dram shells in 1 1/8th oz by SAAMI stds say 1200 fps, shells now manufactured say 1235-1250 and shells mfd or
max dram EQ. SAAMI records still say 1250 fps are 3 1/4 Dr Eq.

The hdcp loads by ESTATE say max dram eq.

Remington NITRO-27s say 1235 Winchester Hdcp say 1250.

Never before in the history of the GRAND AMERICAN has there been a 850 bird shoot-off with 3 hole targets, and still not a definitive winner.
But I will say if they were 3 hole targets I bet it would have ended sooner and a definitive winner would prevail. I am not taking away anything from those 2 shooters their stamina was great and they deserved the same targets thrown in the Singles Championship to be thrown in the shootoff.

If the Singles championship was shot with the 1970s 3 hole target it would have been a different story.

Now look at Trap and Field results-how many 200 straights were shot in 2008
GRAND AMERICAN SINGLES CHAMPIONSHIP.

Now go back 20 years when we had more shooters attending the GRAND how many 200 straights were shot?

Now that is the comparasion of 2 hole vs 3 hole in a nutshell.

Neil you can dazzle some of us with bullsh-t graphs, but actual results on the
shoot reports w/ number of shooters breaking top scores tells the REAL STORY as PAUL HARVEY would say.

Phil Kiner what is your analysis on this subject?
Brad Dysinger what is your analysis on this subject?
Neal Causby what is your analysis on this subject?
Hap McTweeks what is your analsyis on this subject?

I ask these gentlemen because they seem to be more up on this subject and more informed than you
Mr.Neil Winston

Neil I don't have a grand slam, 99s from the 27 and several 200 straights on 3 hole targets, but don't shoot doubles very often, I love Hdcps. and buddy shoots.


Gary Bryant
Dr.longshot
 
#38 ·
Again, take what I say with a grain of salt, because my memory is often faulty. I suspect that happens for others too.

I started shooting ATA in 1978 while living in SW Michigan. If my math is correct (and that is still something I'm reasonably good at), that was 31 years ago, supposedly before the 2-hole era. I attended the Grand for the first time that year, and my recollection is that a Veteran, J. B. Hudson, won the Clay Target Championship in a shootoff that started with around 45 shooters, lasted three nights, and went 450 or so extra targets. That also was around the time, maybe the same year, that Reg Jachimowski was the first to win the Grand American Handicap with 100 straight from 27. So Gary, I'm not buying your argument that things are so much easier now without a whole lot of solid data to support it.
 
#39 ·
Actually, Gary, I'm the only one who's posted any information on this thread. (After your misleading introductory one, the one which says that the 2-hole started in 1989.) Everyone else is either just making it up as you are, or qualifying their assertions with "I believe" (or similar) which is a lot better form but a _different kind_ of information. That is, it is information about what they believe, rather than direct information about what went on.

When ever the 2-hole started and where, it was well established in Minnesota in 1982 and at the Grand by 1985. I was the guy out at the stake for 10 years and know - which is a lot better than believe - how those targets were set in Ohio in those years. The shootoffs were often 3-hole but the events were 2.

It think it must be that you and Neal don't understand that graph I put up comparing the 1978 and 2007 Grand American Handicaps. It's very clear there who shot off and with what scores, and equally clear that what you are saying is not true when we compare those years. I picked them by chance. 1978 was the first year a 27-yarder broke 100 (Reg J) and 2007 was the newest data available when I did the charts.

I have the SAAMI book right here and have explained it to you many times but you refuse to recognize what it says. What do you make of that graph of shells I tested in the early 90's? The "heavies" were all labeled 3-dram then and there were many as fast as Handicap shells are now. You go on and on about this, over and over again, even writing "SAAMI records still say 1250 fps are 3 1/4 Dr Eq." which is not true. There are several dram-equivalents which could average 1250 and 3-dram is one of them.

And so it goes. Post some information we can check on as I have.

Closing you write:

"Neil go back to your stats and tell us how many broke those scores and their yardages."

I'll say it again as I so often do with you Gary. Look a the graph. It says how many broke those scores and what their yardages were. I can't make it any more clear.

Neil
 
#40 ·
Dr.Longshot

"Now look at Trap and Field results-how many 200 straights were shot in 2008 GRAND AMERICAN SINGLES CHAMPIONSHIP.

Now go back 20 years when we had more shooters attending the GRAND how many 200 straights were shot?

Now that is the comparasion of 2 hole vs 3 hole in a nutshell."

So tell me why stop there go back 40 years then 50 years I will be willing to bet that the number of 200 straights 50 years ago will be less than 20 years ago. Were they throwing something other than 3 hole targets then?

"Phil Kiner what is your analysis on this subject? Brad Dysinger what is your analysis on this subject? Neal Causby what is your analysis on this subject? Hap McTweeks what is your analsyis on this subject?

I ask these gentlemen because they seem to be more up on this subject and more informed than you Mr.Neil Winston "

Of course they seem to be up on this subject than Mr. Winston for one reason they are saying the same thing you are saying and that fits your agenda and your so called Facts and Figures

Some of the things you say are not clear as an example you said.

"I compared grand slams History, 1st was in 1964 by Dan Orlich,"

Well I checked the Hall of fame they say.

"First shooter to complete "Grand Slam" Dan Orlich July 30, 1962 "

They also say .

"First 100 straight from the 27 yard line. (Throckmorton's 100 from 27 was on 7/19/1964 at Four Corners Roundup, Cortez TC, Cortez, Colo.) Col. E. S. Throckmorton July 19, 1964"

Now I will stick my neck out and ask with all due respect to Dan Orlich(who as far as I am concerned is the greatest trap shooter that has ever shot)How can you complete a Grand Slam with a 100 from the 27 in 1962 when the first 100 from the 27 wasn't shot until 1964?

If you think I am making it up look it up. For many of us the only way to see these records are on line and if they are incorrect when we go to look how in the hell can you say you have proof of anything?????

Bob Lawless
 
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