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The main reason for crawling the stock

22K views 61 replies 33 participants last post by  Keith Walter  
#1 ·
I've been reading for years on this forum the pros and cons of the so called "crawling the stock". Europeans do it a lot when they shoot Olympic/ Bunker trap. I've been told they use that form as well when shooting FITASC.
I lived down in Spain for 23 years and I shot Bunker for just about 10. Back in the 80's it used to be pretty much the only game around although I've been told these days FITASC is catching on. I also traveled to Italy with my father in quite a few occasions when we were living in Spain and we shot Bunker over in Italy too. Folks here mentioned many reasons to crawl the stock including more aggressive stance to tackle the fast bunker targets and its pretty rough angles, better control of the stock using cheek pressure even more to accomplish that etc ... The cons have also been pointed out: more neck strain and fatigue, eye sockets not fully centered hence diminished visual function etc ... All of that is very true. However, over there most folks argue the main reason for crawling the stock is to avoid getting your central vision off the target and back to the muzzle when you swing through it. They think when you crawl you place your eyes closer to the receiver, so the gun including the muzzle, starts to get totally perceived with your secondary vision while your primary vision remains locked easier onto the target, out there. They believe if your face is farther back on the stock, both the target and the muzzle are closer together out there so speak, so when you swing through it's easier to switch from one to another with your primary vision since the muzzle moves faster than the target when you overtake that target with a swing through.
It's difficult to accurately explain these issues. Anyway that's their theory, not mine. I learnt to shoot bunker like that but not because I think that's right but because my dad taught me that way. These days I dont think about right or wrong shooting form anymore, for a host of reasons. I just shoot.
 
#2 ·
Ivan. teh closer you get your torso to the receiver, the more you become "one-with-the-gun". Conversely, the closer your face is to the butt, the less control.

I sincerly doubt that my comment adds anything of value to your query and I ask other shooters to comment. I can alos say that Kaye Ohye has for a long time advocated shorter stocks to accomplish similar to the "crawl".

Thanks for taking the time to tell us of your Euorpean experience. We need outside inpput.
 
#7 ·
For many, crawling the stock is a chosen element of shooting form. The ability to do it involves the length of the stock, its LOP and the height of the gun mount.

Long necked shooters using an off the rack gun are often forced to crawl. Even with a high gun mount, the length of their necks require their leaning them forward to put their cheek on the comb.

Steve wrote that he mounts forward and has between a 1" and 1.5" separation between his nose and thumb. I question how that involves crawling the stock.

To me, crawling the stock is intentionally leaning the neck or having to lean the neck forward to put the cheek on the comb.
If it is not wanted, the fix is often to add a pad adjuster to allow lowering the recoil pad so the neck lean is no longer required. It also reduces the LOP that is needed because forward lean requires additional LOP to keep the nose and thumb separated during recoil.

It is generally agreed that longer length stocks are a more difficult to swing accurately. To me, that is one reason shorter stocks are better. I understand the opinion that a crawling the stock can create a feeling of one-with-the-gun but I question the cost when you consider the reduced visual acuity, the risk of head-raising and the hastened fatigue that accompanies it.

IMHO shooting with a naturally erect head and neck posture is better for all but a few shooters who have crawled the stock for years for whatever reason. Top shooters in the world may prefer it but they are not on the level of the vast majority of shooters in the TS.com population.
 
#8 ·
I'm a stock crawler because I'm an idiot. I'm still shooting my first and only shotgun, and the way I bought it was to browse the internet, looked at guns, find one that looked really cool and ordered it online. :(

4 years later, I've yet to manage to change my body shape/size to fit the gun naturally so I'm forced to crawl the stock when I mount the gun. It creates a lot of tension and is not ideal.

Which is why, I'm planning to go to Sparta during The Grand this year and see if I can get myself a shotgun that fits me properly. If not, I'll get one that supports the Precision Fit Stock and go that route instead. And if the company I'm working for goes IPO with a good price on the stock, then damn the torpedo, I'm flying out to Italy to get one fitted to me. :D
 
#10 ·
The purpose of stock crawling is to put the upper body in a stronger position to move the gun. You see it more in international trap and sporting clays where it's necessary to move the gun rapidly over a greater distance. When the head is upright and the body is more perpendicular to the gun, vision is good but leverage is reduced.
 
#11 ·
#14 ·
Just for the record, I bought Rollin's book a few years back on Amazon and I think it's a masterpiece on a very difficult subject, and I must say I learnt a lot from it.
But regarding the famous 1"- 1.5" gap between the nose and the thumb, I'd like to point out that separation is no longer an issue when you crawl the stock so your nose is actually placed past the thumb and closer to the receiver. That's exactly what myself and many others down there do.
When it comes to how spread that shooting form is, I'd say 90% of shooters in Spain and Italy (and probably all throughout Europe)use it, from recreational to competitive to professional or world class.
Rollin, the form you advocate is very well thought out and in my opinion ideally suited for ATA, where among other characteristics the targets climb quite a bit and always and I stretch this, at the same vertical angle. Have you ever used that upright head position when shooting Olympic trap? I really mean the question, I'm curious as to what the results were.
As to Dickgshot comment, it's what I meant when I mentioned an aggressive stance to the target. I guess leverage would be the perfect word.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Nothing intelligent to add, other than pictures, which are worth 1000 words ;)

Vitaly Fokeev - Russia. How can he see past the bill of his cap?!?
Double Trap 16th 2008; 4th 2012 London Olympics. 2015 ISSF World Cup Gold Azerbaijan. Held the Double Trap record of 148x150 set at the 2011 ISSF World Cup in Concepcion, Chile.

1756098


Alexey Alipov - Russia
2015 ISSF World Cup, Azerbaijan. 2004 Athens Olympics Gold Medal with a new Olympic record of 149x150.

1756096


Charlotte Kerwood - Great Britain

1756099


Jessica Rossi - Italy
London 2012 Olympic Gold, Women's Trap with record 99x100.

1756101


Jessica Rossi; Silver Medal 2017 ISSF World Cup, New Delhi, India

1756102


Gabriele Rossetti
Olympic Skeet Gold Rio 2016

1756103
 
#18 ·
Comparing stock configurations between Olympic shooting and ATA trap is apples to oranges. Olympic shooters shoot 150 targets, ATA shooters shoot 300 and then the shoot-offs begin.

Crawling the stock? Probably a stock too long in the first place necessitates a forward head. Could be more of a monkey see, monkey do thing because it works and pays to experiment for success.

HAP
 
#19 ·
Ivan M-B,

I have neither shot nor watched Olympic Trap or other Olympic disciplines . I know virtually nothing about them. "Stock Fitter's Bible" was not written with Olympic shooting disciplines in mind. It is geared primarily for American shooters since foreign shooting sometimes uses a slightly different shooting form and as a result, need slightly different stock dimensions.

Should I have written a qualifying statement in the book to the effect that the text does not relate to Olympic shooting?
Possibly, but I did not think it was necessary when I wrote the book because of its targeted shooting population..
 
#22 ·
Rollin, I think any shotgunner regardless of the discipline can benefit a lot from reading your book, quite frankly. And no, you didn't need to write a qualifying statement of any kind in your book.

I was just trying to address the last paragraph of your previous post, which to a certain extent you've written here many times before. You said basically an erect, upright head position, like the one used by many ATA shooters, would help anybody except a few international top shooters, who have been crawling for years "for whatever reason". I explained here their reasons. Also I was curious about whether or not you or anybody else can score well using that form in Olympic trap because I never saw it before. However it's perfectly possible. I just wanted to know if you put your theory to the test personally. I think it was a legitimate question especially given the fact that there are tons of ATA shooters on this forum who shoot other disciplines including Bunker at least recreationally based upon their posts.

Rollin, you said you don't know anything about Olympic trap and never shot it or watched it before. So how can you know if anybody can break targets using the form you advocate? Who cares if your neck feels better after a day of shooting if you can't hit a decent score because you're handicapping yourself? The thing is you should go out there and test out your theory because it might actually work and in the worst case scenario you might be able to learn something new and tweak it for this particular discipline so folks like me stop bugging you:)

Also I wouldn't call Olympic style trap "foreign". The Olympic version has been developed over many decades with the input of many national federations including ours, now USA Shooting. Back in the day was the NRA if I'm not mistaken. Down the Line, for instance, is foreign. I don't think Olympic is foreign.

And finally, you said crawling the stock might work for some top level folks but not for most people on here because they're "not on the same level"? I don't quite get that. I think a form that works for a particular discipline should be used by all, regardless of level?

Anyway interesting and thought provoking posts here, thank you all.
 
#23 ·
Ivan M-B, I shot my first ever bunker at Ben Avery sometime after they had it operating. However, I cheated and used my 7/8ths oz loads. I watched several squads shoot thru before signing up for a round. It didn't take long to figure out which shooters to watch. My friend, more experienced in this and other forms of shotgunning decided to shoot with me, Tom Strunk, a very good shot in anything! The highest score I saw was a 22 shot by one of the fellows I choose to watch. When it came my turn, I shot it in the same fashion as I would in games shooting I've done at much longer distances with faster targets. I managed to break a 19 which was high for this squad. The good bunker shooter I watched came over and asked what gun I was using, told him and he asked if he could look at it? I said sure. He reached for it by the barrels and exclaimed, WOW! How much does this thing weigh? I told him it weighed close to 13 pounds. He asked how I could get on those targets as fast as I did? I said just like I do on faster trap targets, see it, read it and get after them!

HAP