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New petite shooter - needs Barrel Length advice

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Discussion starter · #21 · (Edited)
Wow! Thanks so much for all the input, really enjoyed reading all of it.

I want to shoot all of the clay disciplines and try my hand at dove hunting. Taking the hunting cert this weekend. I'm just getting started but I plan to shoot 1-2x / week and really need a comfortable shotgun to practice with. My budget is $500 - $1200. I'd be willing to go over that budget a bit if I can't find anything suitable - but last resort. I'm all about safety, I clean my own guns and will do it regularly. Want to start with a semi-auto and eventually try an O/U.

It's not my Golden eagle but I am into falconry. I love birds of prey. That golden eagle was in Mongolia, first time I ever served as a perch for one. Incredibly exhilarating and intimidating at the same time, totally made my heart flutter lol. Since then, I've taken falconry courses and plan to become a falconer some day - when I have the land to build mews/housing and devote time to it... Finding a sponsor to become an apprentice is not easy.

A 20 gauge is not comfortable for me to shoot because of the kick - the gun is too light to absorb the recoil. It feels like the gun jumps and I don't like that. I like a little weight to dampen the recoil. It's just a personal preference that I've discovered so far. The problem is LoP and weight of the gun, it seems that a 12" LoP is good for me. Technically, 12" is even too long when I measure it from elbow to finger for the trigger (I can barely even reach the trigger measuring it that way.) I think 12" to 12.5" will probably ok for LoP. The other issue is weight. 7.8 lb or 7lb. 13oz is too heavy for me. While I can shoot the gun, I tire out.

I currently shoot 12 gauge 7/8 load on a CZ semi-auto that has a 12" LoP, but the weight is too heavy - it is 7.8 lb - almost 7lb. 13oz. The recoil on it for the light loads is great (probably because it's so heavy), but it's a bit too heavy. I want a gun that's at least 7lbs (maybe up to 7.3lb I'm guessing.)

Issue is most 12 gauges do not come with that short of LoP and weight. Youth ones are too light.

The only gun I found so far with what seems to be good specs for me is the Beretta 3901 Target RL. Unfortunately, this gun is no longer made and not a lot of people seem to want to give theirs up - don't see many on the gun auction pages. It's been hard finding shotguns with the specs I need to try.

The BT-Micro's LoP and weight is still too long/heavy for me. I REALLY appreciate everyone's input though and I even read the very long article about gun fit - very good.
 
#22 ·
"A 20 gauge is not comfortable for me to shoot because of the kick - the gun is too light to absorb the recoil. It feels like the gun jumps and I don't like that. I like a little weight to dampen the recoil. It's just a personal preference that I've discovered so far. The problem is LoP and weight of the gun, it seems that a 12" LoP is good for me. Technically, 12" is even too long when I measure it from elbow to finger for the trigger (I can barely even reach the trigger measuring it that way.) I think 12" to 12.5" will probably ok for LoP. The other issue is weight. 7.8 lb or 7lb. 13oz is too heavy for me. While I can shoot the gun, I tire out."

The elbow to finger measurement for a gun's LOP is no more accurate today than is was when some dummy came up with it 75 years ago. It does not take into consideration how the shooter stands when he or she shoots or the height of the gun mount coupled with the length of the shooter's neck. (Some shooter have to shoot with their necks leaned forward to put their cheek on the comb; length requires additional LOP to keep the nose and thumb separated during recoil).

The best test for a gun's LOP is the distance between the second knuckle of the trigger hand and the nose. For someone of your height, that separation should be about an inch. Taller shooters can have about an inch and a half and less if their gun mount is very consistent.

To avoid fatigue and shoot a light gun will require a gas operated semi-auto like the Remington 1100 and the 391 (The RL would be close to ideal if you can find one). The other necessity will be shooting very light loads, 3/4 or 7/8 ounce of shot and a velocity about 1150 FPS. These shells are also known as a (2 3/4 dram) shells. A dram is a unit of weight - the amount of black powder required to propel the shot load at that velocity.

I'll bet that the 20 gauge that you shot poked you in the breast during recoil. That is a "pitch" issue - the bottom, pointed "toe" of the recoil pad stuck out too far. (Pitch is the angle formed by the recoil pad and the rib, close to 90 degrees.)

The pitch is right for the shooter when, as the gun is mounted and brought back to the shoulder with the barrel raised to a normal shooting height, the whole recoil pad, top to bottom, makes simultaneous contact with the shoulder. Problems arise when the toe makes contact very much before the top "heel" of the recoil pad. It causes what is known as "cheek slap," which describes the impact of the comb on the cheek(bone).
 
#23 · (Edited)
Kriss, Its almost impossible to lighten up a 12 ga. semi-auto. While the Rem 1100 or Beretta 391 may be a tad lighter than your CZ, I don't think it would change much. How much shorter of a barrel can you go. Now if you go back to the 20 ga. Auto you can now add weight to the stock by placing lead in the stock hole. You can also add weight to the end of the mag tube cap to off-set the back and re-balance the firearm. This will allow you keep gun well balanced for you even with 30 inch. long barrel or a shorter barrel length if you prefer. Still keep a comfortable 7/8 oz payload (1200 fps), while keeping costs down with ammo. If you go to a 28 ga. firearm you will have to reload ammo to keep the costs down. Finding a Rem. 1100 auto or a Beretta 391 may be easier in the smaller ga. as well. A longer barrel will give you a longer sighting plane for more accurate shot placement. I shot a Rem 870 wingmaster for well over a year when I got into trap shooting. The 870 is just to light to be a good target gun, but after I added 11 oz's of weight into the stock hole and 6 oz's to the end cap, it was perfect. It was no longer to light for me. Look into a Jack West Stock for the 1100/1187, as they can be adj. in many ways. Most women that I have meet that had there shotgun fitted to them had a adj. butt plate that was lowered and canted. So you may need one as well. The adj. comb may be needed after you shorten the stock that much as well. I hope this helps you find the perfect gun for you. Break em all. Jeff

You will need to be properly fitted to your shotgun by a stocksmith who knows what to look for because he/she has fitted 1000's of shotguns to 1000's of different shooters.
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
All really great info and advice.

Pull & Mark - Any articles or info about how to weight down the stock / magtube cap? I'd like to learn more about that so I know what my options are.

Rollins - I've tried about 6 different 20 gauges, all of them had more kick than any of the 12 gauges. you're right about the stock pitch, I was more apt to get a punch in the cheek and chest with the 20 gauges.

Brad - thank you for sharing, encourages me to keep looking.

I think I'm going to try to locate a Beretta 3901 RL while learning about what my options are and looking for experienced shotgun gunsmiths in the area. I don't have a huge budget, would like to start with a reasonable price semi-auto until I get more shooting experience and also try more guns.

Cheers,
Karen
 
#26 ·
My girlfriend is 5-4 and when she first started shooting it was on 28 ga. O/U which was light and easy to handle, as she progressed we moved to 12 ga and a heavier gun. There came a point where she would wear out around 75 targets becoming discouraged. I explained that the muscle groups used to hoist a gun were not one's used in daily life and gun lifts were in order to gain strength in those muscle groups. Based on that iinput she began a regiment of lifting her gun several times a couple of days a week. This is something anyone can do in the house, in the garage or basement, gun lifts not only build strength but help with keeping a consistent gun mount. It wasn't long until she could pick up almost any gun and shoot it without tiring. My suggestion any new shooter who wants to break targets have some sort of program that keeps them from wearing out prematurely. You may consider gun lifts and may find after awhile the CZ you're shooting is not to heavy?

If I were you and had a choice my first one would be the Beretta 3901, hopevyou find one.

The only other thing placing the buttstock in the crotch of you elbow and placing your finger on the trigger has no bearing your LOP.

Have fun..........

Surfer
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
Surfer,

I am definitely going to start doing the lifts. I already started a regiment to get myself to be able to do pullups from a dead hang. It is no problem for me to incorporate these exercises into my morning routine. Funny enough, this actually evens out the right side group of muscles since archery builds the back left lat. Thank you so much for the story and suggestions!
 
#28 ·
Karen, First you have to have the firearm. Take off the rubber recoil pad and measure the diameter of the bolt hole. Then place the tape measure down into hole to measure how much depth you have to work with. Then you can find a stock weight the correct diameter and length. I bought my end cap weight from Jim's Eye and Ear. He is located in Jacksonville, florida. (904) 260-9498 if he's still around. I bought my stock weight from a shooter selling one on the for sale section here. I first got the Edwards recoil reducer, it a spring loaded unit. I could not stand the "boog or twag sound" it made with each shot. Then got the mercury recoil reducer from C & H. Buy used if you can as they are not that cheap new. You can even melt fishing weights if you like and pour into your own correct size mold and make one yourself. You'll likely have to guess as to the size (weight) you'll need on the barrel end cap. The barrel weights that clamp on the barrel will move forward every time you fire. They can move several inchs after just two rounds. They tend to scratch the bluing very quickly. The Jack West Stock can save you money as well as they have the adjustments built into them (google it). A Stock fitter will charge around $250 for a adj. comb and another $250 for the adj. butt plate. You can also adj. the length of pull somewhat/maybe. You'll have to check into that. Now you got some work to do. Good Luck and break em all. Jeff
 
#29 ·
Karen,
Have you tried a Remington 1100 standard 20 which uses all the components of a regular 12 gauge 1100 except for the 20 gauge barrel and bolt. With a 28 inch barrel, it weighs about 7 lbs and with a 12 inch stock (12 3/4 inch LOP with a thin pad) this might be a good starting gun for you. Since Remington does not make them anymore, they have become collectible and hold their value real well. JM
 
#30 ·
Karen don't feel bad about not liking a 20 ga. My girlfriend as well as others didn't like them either and the sharp punch 20 gauge seems to have. Men are well men and don't get it sometimes..... I read on another thread her concerning a twelve year old shooter and a gun suitable for him, someone responded they had a RL 3901 for sale, check it out.

Surfer
 
#31 ·
You said clays...so you didn't say which game. For an all around gun look at a sporting clays auto. Youth or ladies model. It's hard to be over-barreled in any of the games so go w 28 if it's comfortable.
 
#32 ·
Hi Karen - My wife is about your size and her first clay gun was a Ruger Red Label in 20. She quickly moved to a semi (391 parallel target with stock work) in order to shoot a 12. Any 300 series Beretta with some stock work will both fit you and not kick the snot out of you with 1 ounce loads. There are some aftermarket recoil systems for semis that bring recoil down even further - but they require some stock length so you may be limited given your LOP. The only guy I would talk to about any of this is Tron - look him up and email him. He is a Berretta semi-auto pro - if it can be done - he can do it to one of those guns. A good 303, 390, 391, 3901 (which is a 390/391 bastard Frankenstein and a really great gun) with a wooden stock should get you where you want to go. A Remington will be heavier because the receiver is steel - but can still be made to fit you. A 26 inch barrel is fine. On a semi, a 26 gives about the same sight plane as a 3o on an OU. There is zero difference in pattern, and minimal in velocity (I will say zero again) between a 26 and a 34 inch barrel when properly choked. Your shot reaches full speed at about 20-22 inches inside the barrel according to what I've read.

Ducks
 
#33 ·
FWIW, most all 20g guns are made these days on smaller frames than a 12. What you will find is the 20g is the lightest gun in all 4 gauges. Most brands sub gauge guns..... 410 over/under's are the heaviest and the lightest is the 20g. There's not to many large frame 20g guns available anymore, and the old ones, as has been stated are pricey. Semi auto's, same deal. No one wants a large frame small gauge gun.

Find a good Beretta or 1100 and have the stock changed or cut down. The receiver is going to be the same either way between models of the same gauge......with very few exceptions.

Something to keep in mind, most cheap ammo is not the most comfortable to shoot. That goes for 20g and 12g both. Finding 7/8 12g is not something you can stop at Wally world and pick up. 7/8 20g is plentiful, but a lot of it is not target ammo. Most of it is field loads which can pound up your shoulder. It makes a big difference what ammo you have been shooting. Sure all AA's are target ammo but in my area it's hard to find the lighter loads. Everyone thinks they need 3 dram 1 1/8 loads. Ammo plays a big role, and it's not all the same. You can end up having to purchase pricey ammo or load your own.
 
#34 ·
Kris,
I too am a smaller shooter at 4'10". I started shooting three or four years ago and purchased a Browning Citori, WSSF in teal blue and just loved it. The gun was made one year and has a 28" barrel and is smaller around and easier to hold for smaller hands. The gun was much too long and we had it cut down and an adjustable comb added. As I said, I just loved the gun as it is very light. As I got better at shooting, my husband noticed I was not following through with my swings all the time. This last year at the Spring Grand I borrowed a friends Krieghoff with a 30" barrel. The first time I shot the gun I hit 18 out of 25 which for me is very good. My husband noticed I was swinging through and not stopping at all. We both concluded it is due to the heavier longer barrel. Even though the Krieghoff is quite a bit heavier, I think the longer barrel is better for trap shooting. While we were at the Spring Grand last month I also visited with Doug Gray who sells Ceasar Guerini. Cearsar Guerini has just come out with a women's trap gun and it is much lighter and smaller around. I would give Doug a call and check it out.

If you are looking for a starter gun, I would definitely look for a 30" over/under barrel. Just my two cents, but I am much, much happier with my heavier gun and 30" barrel.

Julia
 
#35 ·
krissblade said:
All really great info and advice.

Pull & Mark - Any articles or info about how to weight down the stock / magtube cap? I'd like to learn more about that so I know what my options are.

Rollins - I've tried about 6 different 20 gauges, all of them had more kick than any of the 12 gauges. you're right about the stock pitch, I was more apt to get a punch in the cheek and chest with the 20 gauges.

Brad - thank you for sharing, encourages me to keep looking.

I think I'm going to try to locate a Beretta 3901 RL while learning about what my options are and looking for experienced shotgun gunsmiths in the area. I don't have a huge budget, would like to start with a reasonable price semi-auto until I get more shooting experience and also try more guns.

Cheers,
Karen
Click to expand...
 
#36 ·
Karen,

Lots of advice here, good luck sorting through it. I could give you shotgun advice but that is not why I am posting. I am posting because there is a man that used to work for me that is one of the few falconers in the country. If you are interested let me know and I will see if I can track him down for you.
Lyle
 
#38 ·
Karen,

I do not favor using the length of the lower arm to judge the correct length of a stock. Lower arm length does not take into consideration the stance rotation used by the shooter or if the shooter leans the neck forward to put the cheek on the comb. Neck lean is used by shooters with longer necks and those who mount their guns lower on their shoulders than necessary.

In my opinion, stock length should be judged by the distance between the nose and the second knuckle of the trigger-hand thumb with the gun mounted. For someone of your height, there should be a one inch separation or a bit more or less, assuming that you develop a consistent gun mount by practicing with an empty gun, wearing the clothing worn when you shoot.
 
#39 ·
I have a 13 year old daughter that is about the same size as you, for skeet, she shoots a browning citori with subgauge tubes that I shortened the stock on to fit her, and for trap and sporting she shoots a youth model 870 that has a 21" barrel, she is not handicapped in any of the games with either gun. IMO barrel length is not a huge issue, although many will disagree....................Joe
 
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