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New petite shooter - needs Barrel Length advice

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10K views 39 replies 25 participants last post by  krissblade  
#1 ·
I'm just getting into clay shooting, but can tell it is will be an obsession for a long time. I am small woman, weigh about a buck and 5'1". I've tried enough shotguns to know that I really do NOT like 20 gauges because they are not comfortable to me to shoot. Looking at semi-autos with a shorter LoP. It's been tough.

Barrel Length - 26" vs 28" . Big ticket question. I've read that semi-autos are longer overall because of more room needed for the action than say an O/U gun with the same barrel length. Am I at disadvantage to shoot clays with a 26" barrel?


Here are is my best guess for gun that would best suit me. I'm just not sure about the barrel length.

12-13" LoP (currently use 12" lop)
12 gauge
semi-auto
weight - 7lb - 7.4 lb (best guess). under 7 lb, not enough recoil dampening and not comfortable. I currently use a 7.8 lb gun which is too heavy for me.
 
#2 ·
You might think about a BT-99 Micro. I have some for the kids in our SCTP and they do well with them shooting 1 oz loads. They make a 30" and a 32" Micro. They grip is much shorter on them for a smaller hand.

Jim R
 
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#3 ·
It looks like the best gun for you looking at your requirements would be a BT-99 Micro Midas, it has a 13 inch LOP which is 3/4 inch shorter than the micro, and they make a 28 inch barrel model that weighs 7 lbs, 11 oz. Some light 1oz or 7/8 oz loads should make recoil manageable. I had my girlfriend shoot my bt-99 for the first time the other day, and had her try some of the Winchester AA Featherlights and she handled the recoil well even though the gun certainly did not fit her. http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?fid=009B&cid=017&tid=075
 
#5 ·
Go with the BT-99, shorten it up, put a Gracoil on it and shoot any load you want. When you get to the point that you just absolutely gotta have a fancier gun put the BT up for sale and it'll probably be gone the first day the ad gets posted. You just can't go wrong with that gun.
 
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#19 ·
krissblade,
I've read Rollin Oswald's book and have had four (4) guns done by Wenig Custom Gunstocks for me and my wife. They are the experts and they will tell you that there is no such thing as an off-the-shelf shotgun that fits a woman. My wife shoots a tricked out Browning Maxus (semi auto) with 28" barrel and Wenig custom stock. She likes the semi auto for reduced recoil and shoots either 7/8ths or 1 oz loads. Something as simple as a palm swell on the stock can reduce felt recoil.
Buy and shoot whatever you feel most comfortable with, but when your're ready to start improving, get thee to a gunfitter.
 
D
#10 ·
I'm assuming when said you want to shoot clays you may be asking about a gun capable of firing two shots a requirement for sporting clays, skeet and trap doubles, if so then it's either an automatic or an over and under break open gun. You also didn't mention budget a key component for any recommendation, at this point my only imput is barrel length, I would not recommend any barrel shorter than 28" unless the only game you will be shooting is skeet. For other disciplines you should be able to handle a 30" barrel on a well fitted gun with a little practice.

Surfer
 
#11 ·
I wouldn't go any shorter than a 30". I would try to find a Browning BT99Plus Micro. This is the model discontinued Browning in '99-'00, and it's worth it's weight in silver. It has a short, adjustable LOP, adjustable rib, recoil reducer, adjustable comb, decent weight, and a size that's great for small folks/kids. Add a 100Straight/Jones pad adjuster for $60 and you be able to fit it to you like a glove. No constant maintenance and cleaning, won't bounce shells of the guy to your right, completely reliable, safer. If you want to see what one looks like(sorta) there's a standard length one on here for sale right now. It's not a micro, and has a "few" mods but you can get an idea what it looks like. Good luck.

http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/custom-bt-99-plus.241210/#post-2258107

Bob Falfa
 
M
#13 ·
Most semi-autos are about two inches longer than an equivalent O/U shotgun. My 30" 1100 was about the same length as my 32" Beretta 687.
As recoil is a concern, you might want to take a look at a Remington 1100 with a 26 or 28" RemChoke barrel. A Jack West Pro Combo stock set with the Ken Rucker Autobuster would help with the recoil and give you an adjustable butt plate and adjustable comb, but even with a thin recoil pad I think the shortest you could get the LOP would be a little under 14". You could get the youth model with out the Autobuster and I think that would shorten it to around 13". 12" might be hard to do on a lot of semi-autos because of the action spring tube running through the stock.
 
#14 ·
The rem 1100 or beretta 39orl target with a 26 inch barrel will break every target you shoot it at.
I have a young lady on an SCTP youth team using the ladies Wenig new American stock on an 1100. Much better grip radius for a small hand. Jack West stock grip is sized for a larger hand
Both autos reduce recoil very well in 12 ga with 1 oz or 7/8 oz loads. They need to be kept clean to cycle and a few tricks help.
But If you are starting and looking for an auto that will break clays at all the games the 26 or 28 inch has done it for a long time.
 
#15 ·
Barrel length in itself is meaningless. Countless thousands of pigeons have been killed in the ring with 26" barrels and that is way more difficult to do than any clay target game.

Get a gun that fits and you're comfortable with and worry about technique not barrel length.
 
L
#16 ·
Semperfi909 calls it right. A person will always shoot best with what they are comfortable shooting. The payload is no weaker out of a 26 inch gun than out of an 32 inch gun. My hunting O/U is 20 inch barrels. I guess I am used to it after 30 plus years, but it never seems like a disadvantage other than it's light weight having heavier recoil.
 
#17 ·
krissblade said:
I'm just getting into clay shooting, but can tell it is will be an obsession for a long time. I am small woman, weigh about a buck and 5'1". I've tried enough shotguns to know that I really do NOT like 20 gauges because they are not comfortable to me to shoot. Looking at semi-autos with a shorter LoP. It's been tough.

Barrel Length - 26" vs 28" . Big ticket question. I've read that semi-autos are longer overall because of more room needed for the action than say an O/U gun with the same barrel length. Am I at disadvantage to shoot clays with a 26" barrel?


Here are is my best guess for gun that would best suit me. I'm just not sure about the barrel length.

12-13" LoP (currently use 12" lop)
12 gauge
semi-auto
weight - 7lb - 7.4 lb (best guess). under 7 lb, not enough recoil dampening and not comfortable. I currently use a 7.8 lb gun which is too heavy for me.
Click to expand...
You say "I've tried enough shotguns to know that I really do NOT like 20 gauges because they are not comfortable to me to shoot. "
Do you mean the recoil is too much?
Why is a 20g not "comfortable?" 12g will recoil more (generally) and 28g is OK for skeet but for trap.....
Is recoil or fit the problem?

My GF shoots a CG 20g with 28" barrels for both skeet and trap and does fine. The gun was fitted to her (LOP and Pitch) by Andrew at CG. She shoots 1oz 20g for trap and 7/8ox for skeet. She's about your size.
 
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#18 ·
Redcobra said:
Why is a 20g not "comfortable?" 12g will recoil more (generally) and 28g is OK for skeet but for trap.....
Click to expand...
Depends on which 20g and what loads. A 20g can recoil fairly hard, a 12g with the right loads can be more comfortable to shoot. I like a 20g because it's smaller and easier to carry, not because it is more comfortable to shoot. A 12g with 7/8 loads takes care of that. A lightweight 20g with equal loads has more recoil.

Like has been said, it depends on what she wants to use the gun for. Everyone always assumes everyone wants to go out and shoot handicap and earn a living doing it or shoot games.. Some people just want to enjoy shooting.

Sounds like she needs a youth model Beretta.

26" vs 28"? no.
 
#20 ·
221 said:
Depends on which 20g and what loads. A 20g can recoil fairly hard, a 12g with the right loads can be more comfortable to shoot. I like a 20g because it's smaller and easier to carry, not because it is more comfortable to shoot. A 12g with 7/8 loads takes care of that. A lightweight 20g with equal loads has more recoil.

Like has been said, it depends on what she wants to use the gun for. Everyone always assumes everyone wants to go out and shoot handicap and earn a living doing it or shoot games.. Some people just want to enjoy shooting.

Sounds like she needs a youth model Beretta.

26" vs 28"? no.
Click to expand...
Not talking about "lightweight" 20g. I was assuming she would get a clays gun, not a field gun. Put the weight in the butt/receiver and keep the barrels light. My CG 12g Impact has the same recoil as my 20G Impact when both shoot 1oz loads, but the 20g swings and handles better. Just cause it's a 20g doesn't mean it's lighter.
 
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#21 · (Edited)
Wow! Thanks so much for all the input, really enjoyed reading all of it.

I want to shoot all of the clay disciplines and try my hand at dove hunting. Taking the hunting cert this weekend. I'm just getting started but I plan to shoot 1-2x / week and really need a comfortable shotgun to practice with. My budget is $500 - $1200. I'd be willing to go over that budget a bit if I can't find anything suitable - but last resort. I'm all about safety, I clean my own guns and will do it regularly. Want to start with a semi-auto and eventually try an O/U.

It's not my Golden eagle but I am into falconry. I love birds of prey. That golden eagle was in Mongolia, first time I ever served as a perch for one. Incredibly exhilarating and intimidating at the same time, totally made my heart flutter lol. Since then, I've taken falconry courses and plan to become a falconer some day - when I have the land to build mews/housing and devote time to it... Finding a sponsor to become an apprentice is not easy.

A 20 gauge is not comfortable for me to shoot because of the kick - the gun is too light to absorb the recoil. It feels like the gun jumps and I don't like that. I like a little weight to dampen the recoil. It's just a personal preference that I've discovered so far. The problem is LoP and weight of the gun, it seems that a 12" LoP is good for me. Technically, 12" is even too long when I measure it from elbow to finger for the trigger (I can barely even reach the trigger measuring it that way.) I think 12" to 12.5" will probably ok for LoP. The other issue is weight. 7.8 lb or 7lb. 13oz is too heavy for me. While I can shoot the gun, I tire out.

I currently shoot 12 gauge 7/8 load on a CZ semi-auto that has a 12" LoP, but the weight is too heavy - it is 7.8 lb - almost 7lb. 13oz. The recoil on it for the light loads is great (probably because it's so heavy), but it's a bit too heavy. I want a gun that's at least 7lbs (maybe up to 7.3lb I'm guessing.)

Issue is most 12 gauges do not come with that short of LoP and weight. Youth ones are too light.

The only gun I found so far with what seems to be good specs for me is the Beretta 3901 Target RL. Unfortunately, this gun is no longer made and not a lot of people seem to want to give theirs up - don't see many on the gun auction pages. It's been hard finding shotguns with the specs I need to try.

The BT-Micro's LoP and weight is still too long/heavy for me. I REALLY appreciate everyone's input though and I even read the very long article about gun fit - very good.
 
R
#22 ·
"A 20 gauge is not comfortable for me to shoot because of the kick - the gun is too light to absorb the recoil. It feels like the gun jumps and I don't like that. I like a little weight to dampen the recoil. It's just a personal preference that I've discovered so far. The problem is LoP and weight of the gun, it seems that a 12" LoP is good for me. Technically, 12" is even too long when I measure it from elbow to finger for the trigger (I can barely even reach the trigger measuring it that way.) I think 12" to 12.5" will probably ok for LoP. The other issue is weight. 7.8 lb or 7lb. 13oz is too heavy for me. While I can shoot the gun, I tire out."

The elbow to finger measurement for a gun's LOP is no more accurate today than is was when some dummy came up with it 75 years ago. It does not take into consideration how the shooter stands when he or she shoots or the height of the gun mount coupled with the length of the shooter's neck. (Some shooter have to shoot with their necks leaned forward to put their cheek on the comb; length requires additional LOP to keep the nose and thumb separated during recoil).

The best test for a gun's LOP is the distance between the second knuckle of the trigger hand and the nose. For someone of your height, that separation should be about an inch. Taller shooters can have about an inch and a half and less if their gun mount is very consistent.

To avoid fatigue and shoot a light gun will require a gas operated semi-auto like the Remington 1100 and the 391 (The RL would be close to ideal if you can find one). The other necessity will be shooting very light loads, 3/4 or 7/8 ounce of shot and a velocity about 1150 FPS. These shells are also known as a (2 3/4 dram) shells. A dram is a unit of weight - the amount of black powder required to propel the shot load at that velocity.

I'll bet that the 20 gauge that you shot poked you in the breast during recoil. That is a "pitch" issue - the bottom, pointed "toe" of the recoil pad stuck out too far. (Pitch is the angle formed by the recoil pad and the rib, close to 90 degrees.)

The pitch is right for the shooter when, as the gun is mounted and brought back to the shoulder with the barrel raised to a normal shooting height, the whole recoil pad, top to bottom, makes simultaneous contact with the shoulder. Problems arise when the toe makes contact very much before the top "heel" of the recoil pad. It causes what is known as "cheek slap," which describes the impact of the comb on the cheek(bone).
 
P
#23 · (Edited)
Kriss, Its almost impossible to lighten up a 12 ga. semi-auto. While the Rem 1100 or Beretta 391 may be a tad lighter than your CZ, I don't think it would change much. How much shorter of a barrel can you go. Now if you go back to the 20 ga. Auto you can now add weight to the stock by placing lead in the stock hole. You can also add weight to the end of the mag tube cap to off-set the back and re-balance the firearm. This will allow you keep gun well balanced for you even with 30 inch. long barrel or a shorter barrel length if you prefer. Still keep a comfortable 7/8 oz payload (1200 fps), while keeping costs down with ammo. If you go to a 28 ga. firearm you will have to reload ammo to keep the costs down. Finding a Rem. 1100 auto or a Beretta 391 may be easier in the smaller ga. as well. A longer barrel will give you a longer sighting plane for more accurate shot placement. I shot a Rem 870 wingmaster for well over a year when I got into trap shooting. The 870 is just to light to be a good target gun, but after I added 11 oz's of weight into the stock hole and 6 oz's to the end cap, it was perfect. It was no longer to light for me. Look into a Jack West Stock for the 1100/1187, as they can be adj. in many ways. Most women that I have meet that had there shotgun fitted to them had a adj. butt plate that was lowered and canted. So you may need one as well. The adj. comb may be needed after you shorten the stock that much as well. I hope this helps you find the perfect gun for you. Break em all. Jeff

You will need to be properly fitted to your shotgun by a stocksmith who knows what to look for because he/she has fitted 1000's of shotguns to 1000's of different shooters.
 
#25 ·
All really great info and advice.

Pull & Mark - Any articles or info about how to weight down the stock / magtube cap? I'd like to learn more about that so I know what my options are.

Rollins - I've tried about 6 different 20 gauges, all of them had more kick than any of the 12 gauges. you're right about the stock pitch, I was more apt to get a punch in the cheek and chest with the 20 gauges.

Brad - thank you for sharing, encourages me to keep looking.

I think I'm going to try to locate a Beretta 3901 RL while learning about what my options are and looking for experienced shotgun gunsmiths in the area. I don't have a huge budget, would like to start with a reasonable price semi-auto until I get more shooting experience and also try more guns.

Cheers,
Karen
 
L
#35 ·
krissblade said:
All really great info and advice.

Pull & Mark - Any articles or info about how to weight down the stock / magtube cap? I'd like to learn more about that so I know what my options are.

Rollins - I've tried about 6 different 20 gauges, all of them had more kick than any of the 12 gauges. you're right about the stock pitch, I was more apt to get a punch in the cheek and chest with the 20 gauges.

Brad - thank you for sharing, encourages me to keep looking.

I think I'm going to try to locate a Beretta 3901 RL while learning about what my options are and looking for experienced shotgun gunsmiths in the area. I don't have a huge budget, would like to start with a reasonable price semi-auto until I get more shooting experience and also try more guns.

Cheers,
Karen
Click to expand...
 
D
#26 ·
My girlfriend is 5-4 and when she first started shooting it was on 28 ga. O/U which was light and easy to handle, as she progressed we moved to 12 ga and a heavier gun. There came a point where she would wear out around 75 targets becoming discouraged. I explained that the muscle groups used to hoist a gun were not one's used in daily life and gun lifts were in order to gain strength in those muscle groups. Based on that iinput she began a regiment of lifting her gun several times a couple of days a week. This is something anyone can do in the house, in the garage or basement, gun lifts not only build strength but help with keeping a consistent gun mount. It wasn't long until she could pick up almost any gun and shoot it without tiring. My suggestion any new shooter who wants to break targets have some sort of program that keeps them from wearing out prematurely. You may consider gun lifts and may find after awhile the CZ you're shooting is not to heavy?

If I were you and had a choice my first one would be the Beretta 3901, hopevyou find one.

The only other thing placing the buttstock in the crotch of you elbow and placing your finger on the trigger has no bearing your LOP.

Have fun..........

Surfer
 
#27 ·
Surfer,

I am definitely going to start doing the lifts. I already started a regiment to get myself to be able to do pullups from a dead hang. It is no problem for me to incorporate these exercises into my morning routine. Funny enough, this actually evens out the right side group of muscles since archery builds the back left lat. Thank you so much for the story and suggestions!
 
P
#28 ·
Karen, First you have to have the firearm. Take off the rubber recoil pad and measure the diameter of the bolt hole. Then place the tape measure down into hole to measure how much depth you have to work with. Then you can find a stock weight the correct diameter and length. I bought my end cap weight from Jim's Eye and Ear. He is located in Jacksonville, florida. (904) 260-9498 if he's still around. I bought my stock weight from a shooter selling one on the for sale section here. I first got the Edwards recoil reducer, it a spring loaded unit. I could not stand the "boog or twag sound" it made with each shot. Then got the mercury recoil reducer from C & H. Buy used if you can as they are not that cheap new. You can even melt fishing weights if you like and pour into your own correct size mold and make one yourself. You'll likely have to guess as to the size (weight) you'll need on the barrel end cap. The barrel weights that clamp on the barrel will move forward every time you fire. They can move several inchs after just two rounds. They tend to scratch the bluing very quickly. The Jack West Stock can save you money as well as they have the adjustments built into them (google it). A Stock fitter will charge around $250 for a adj. comb and another $250 for the adj. butt plate. You can also adj. the length of pull somewhat/maybe. You'll have to check into that. Now you got some work to do. Good Luck and break em all. Jeff
 
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