How far is the average target broken from 16yds?, 27yds?. I know this will vary from shooter to shooter but just an average ? Thanks, Dennis
Target breaks -- how far??
valmet
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32 yards
There isn't a reliable average. When I didn't have eye problems I broke singles targets at an average of 25 yards. Now it is closer to 30. Based on my experience, 30 yards would be about the average for most of the shooters I've scored or watched. The oft bandied about 34 yards is not at all accurate.
Really good 27 yard shooters take their targets at 35 yards, good at 40. Anything past that and you will not be generating good scores.
Really good 27 yard shooters take their targets at 35 yards, good at 40. Anything past that and you will not be generating good scores.
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A while ago I set up a high-speed camera to test this. I needed a locked trap to get it right and started with straightaways to get some idea if it worked at all and if so, how to progress. The shooter was a good All-American but I was amazed how quickly that (known) target was broken; a little closer than ten yards from the traphouse was the most common sootball. Still, I think that probably defines a general "shortest" distance people other than Britt can reliably manage.
I hope to extend this with more testing this fall. We need to know both the distance and typical angles of flight when broken to make any sense of the math of target rise/raised POI connection, if any. So far I've not made it work at all but that may just be because I don't know what numbers to use, though I give credit to zzt (above) for getting us all over a big misunderstanding. He made two contributions
1. It makes a difference how tall the shooter is and
2. Just as the bird rises in the (at handicap) 0.14 seconds between the shot and the hit so, too, does the shot. That's a big insight and changes the calculation a lot.
Neil
PS. If you don't think there is ever any progress in understanding trapshooting you might want to click on that first related link below, Reading Target Breaks II. I think it's always worth re-evaluating where we were, where we are now. Surely HMB hasn't changed his mind and Yansica1 might not have either, but I'll bet some of the others have!
Neil
I hope to extend this with more testing this fall. We need to know both the distance and typical angles of flight when broken to make any sense of the math of target rise/raised POI connection, if any. So far I've not made it work at all but that may just be because I don't know what numbers to use, though I give credit to zzt (above) for getting us all over a big misunderstanding. He made two contributions
1. It makes a difference how tall the shooter is and
2. Just as the bird rises in the (at handicap) 0.14 seconds between the shot and the hit so, too, does the shot. That's a big insight and changes the calculation a lot.
Neil
PS. If you don't think there is ever any progress in understanding trapshooting you might want to click on that first related link below, Reading Target Breaks II. I think it's always worth re-evaluating where we were, where we are now. Surely HMB hasn't changed his mind and Yansica1 might not have either, but I'll bet some of the others have!
Neil
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A good shooter and a locked trap is like shooting the first bird in doubles. Some shooters barely let them get out of the house. That is probably not a typical distance.
I run our 5 Stand on a trap field that is down from where shooters practice trap, so I get a side view of shooters and targets. Typical 16 yard targets are broken about the same distance beyond the house as the shooters are standing back at the 16 yard line, so 32-35 yards. Most better shooters shoot a little faster, so it would be a little closer. Handicap targets are broken in about the same place, so the added distance is because of the longer distance from the shooter to the house.
Mark
I run our 5 Stand on a trap field that is down from where shooters practice trap, so I get a side view of shooters and targets. Typical 16 yard targets are broken about the same distance beyond the house as the shooters are standing back at the 16 yard line, so 32-35 yards. Most better shooters shoot a little faster, so it would be a little closer. Handicap targets are broken in about the same place, so the added distance is because of the longer distance from the shooter to the house.
Mark
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I agree, Mark; the next test will be at a locked hard-angle targets and I expect the distance to be a good deal greater. But I shoot a lot with that All-American and even in registered events he still seems to hit them so close, and so hard, I can't understand how he does it.
Neil
Neil
I like to trap the first bird in doubles. This method lets me break the bird 5 yards out of the
house. Add that to the 16 yards I am from the house for a total of 21 yards total for the
shot. HMB
P.S. I like to read the breaks so I can adjust my hold point and center my hits. HMB
house. Add that to the 16 yards I am from the house for a total of 21 yards total for the
shot. HMB
P.S. I like to read the breaks so I can adjust my hold point and center my hits. HMB
I don't think the total shot traveled distance will be greater with the trap locked at a hard angle. While I was collecting data I was really surprised at the numbers that were being reported. It was not what I expected. After a little thought, it made sense.
Distance of the bird out of the trap house (Point B) is not the answer. It is part of the equation. What follows may not be intuitive, but it is fact (for me). My shortest shot is a straight from Post 3. I hold a high gun and shoot a modestly high POI (12" @ 40). I'm ready for the shot, see the bird leave the house and seemingly have to wait for it to rise to the muzzle. My longest shot is a 3-hole straight from Post 1 or 5. Why? When on Post 5 I hold to the right of the house and I am expecting a hard or pretty hard right. I break the bird 8-9 yards out from the house as viewed from the side. That equates to 10 yards from Point b, but only 24 yards from me, because the shot path is the hypotenuse of the triangle. The straight from 5 surprises me and I have to adjust, catch up and aim. That takes time, so the bird is 27-29 yards away when it breaks.
I've stood behind many All-Americans and State 1st Teamers and watched them shoot. It is a constant source of amazement how quickly they shoot. I swear they all have radar or ESP or something. Geez! Straights for 3 are broken when the target is just at top-of-head level. Angles are not much higher.
For a really, really slow, newby shooter who breaks the bird when it no longer rising, the shot still only travels 37 yards.
Distance of the bird out of the trap house (Point B) is not the answer. It is part of the equation. What follows may not be intuitive, but it is fact (for me). My shortest shot is a straight from Post 3. I hold a high gun and shoot a modestly high POI (12" @ 40). I'm ready for the shot, see the bird leave the house and seemingly have to wait for it to rise to the muzzle. My longest shot is a 3-hole straight from Post 1 or 5. Why? When on Post 5 I hold to the right of the house and I am expecting a hard or pretty hard right. I break the bird 8-9 yards out from the house as viewed from the side. That equates to 10 yards from Point b, but only 24 yards from me, because the shot path is the hypotenuse of the triangle. The straight from 5 surprises me and I have to adjust, catch up and aim. That takes time, so the bird is 27-29 yards away when it breaks.
I've stood behind many All-Americans and State 1st Teamers and watched them shoot. It is a constant source of amazement how quickly they shoot. I swear they all have radar or ESP or something. Geez! Straights for 3 are broken when the target is just at top-of-head level. Angles are not much higher.
For a really, really slow, newby shooter who breaks the bird when it no longer rising, the shot still only travels 37 yards.
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When we tested a shooter from the 27; we had an observer on each side of the trap out far enough to make it safe. We'd place a marker where the bird looked to be broken. After the round, we'd use a ribbon to draw a line between the marks to get a straight line for each target shot or shot at! 27 yard targets will foolya on the distances broken from the line.
Locking the trap won't give you an honest average either.
HAP
Locking the trap won't give you an honest average either.
HAP
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We are interested in your finding also Hap. Come on, spill your guts. In all appearances, it seems like some good 27 yard shooters get the bird fairly low to the house. Scott
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Scott/ZZT, since I was the 27 yard shooter tested, my results would have no bearing on who I consider the quickest of quick. I shoot fairly quick yet my average from 27 was 40 yards! It wasn't what I thought either!
Perform the test on your club pros that's known to shoot really quick? The harder the angle with speed make for longer averages! Ability to see depending on background and locking on has an effect also. Give that method a try while using the thought of norms for target breaking distances as a comparison?
Straights from 2 and 4 will result in shorter averages shot too.
HAP
Perform the test on your club pros that's known to shoot really quick? The harder the angle with speed make for longer averages! Ability to see depending on background and locking on has an effect also. Give that method a try while using the thought of norms for target breaking distances as a comparison?
Straights from 2 and 4 will result in shorter averages shot too.
HAP
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funclays, that won't work for the same reason reading target breaks doesn't work. What happens to targets after they are hit is controlled by their momentum, translational and rotational, and little else. Their rotational momentum makes them spread (big pieces) right & (small pieces) left & (big pieces) forward & (small pieces) back. In addition, their translational momentum makes them go forward and up in cases where they are still rising when hit and forward and down in the rarer cases of "flattened" targets. The effect is that their "debris field" is determined by variables other than where they were first hit and tells you little of how they got there.
The proof is easy. Walk out toward the stake and most of the bits are nearer the stake rather then a good deal closer yet almost no target are actually hit way out there.
Neil
The proof is easy. Walk out toward the stake and most of the bits are nearer the stake rather then a good deal closer yet almost no target are actually hit way out there.
Neil
Neil, the debris that fall are all the way from the trap house to past the stakes are as you stated. But where is the biggest pile of the debris you stated that most are at the stakes is that not because they are a missed target? I have seen heaviest closer to the trap house and that would be my best guess as to the average distance a target was broke at. I am sure that you will find out the exact distance and will let us know. Thanks
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funclays, I just walked Kyra out to trap 2 at the South Dakota State Shoot in Aberdeen, which is running wonderfully, by the way. The center of broken target-pieces was about 3/5 of the way from the house to the stake, call it 30 yards out. If that indicated where most targets are hit we would be, we'd be breaking them at 45 yards at singles, 57 from the back fence. That's inpossible. Ergo, where where the bits come to rest is as predicted my Newton's First Law, not by where they were hit, which should be no surprise to anyone.
Neil
Neil
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Not many of us are All-Americans, Neil, and most of us don't shoot with a locked trap.
All of us can smoke targets before the shadow hits the ground if we want to, but I score better if I shoot slower and let the bird get a little riper. I've been told a number of times I shoot very fast, and when I hear this, I intentionally slow things down and let the birds get further out. Some days I can shoot fast, and other days I can't, depending on how relaxed I am, how good my reflexes are, what the wind is doing, and how well my eyes are working that day. Some of the worst shooters I've seen are spot shooters who shoot like they're shooting first shot doubles. Point is, I'll adjust my break point depending on conditions, like everybody else.
$.02.
All of us can smoke targets before the shadow hits the ground if we want to, but I score better if I shoot slower and let the bird get a little riper. I've been told a number of times I shoot very fast, and when I hear this, I intentionally slow things down and let the birds get further out. Some days I can shoot fast, and other days I can't, depending on how relaxed I am, how good my reflexes are, what the wind is doing, and how well my eyes are working that day. Some of the worst shooters I've seen are spot shooters who shoot like they're shooting first shot doubles. Point is, I'll adjust my break point depending on conditions, like everybody else.
$.02.
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If you ever used a dry fire simulator you would find out that its very hard to break the first target in doubles below 28 yards. Given that you know were this target will be you should break it faster than a 16 yard target. While you are at the Grand why not go into the dry fire building and see how fast you can break a 16 yard target. You might be surprised what you average break is.
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