@grntitan: While I mostly agree with you on this statement, it's not a given. There were several caught using reloads in the Handicap Events at the Grand both this year and the previous years since requiring new shells in all Handicap Events. Simple oversight on the shooter's part or a blatant attempt at cheating?? I don't know the answer but it happened.

I think the actual number of DQ for illegal shells is almost microscopic, and noteworthy when it happens b/c it is so rare.

I think the factory shell requirement for the Martin purses was prescriptive and was correct, as for that kind of money, the sharpies would come out of the woodwork.

I have not been to Sparta for The Grand ... does a line judge even eyeball what folks have in their pouch prior to taking the line?

Bob

Goatskin: I needed that laugh this morning :)

Is that in addition to the chuckles you get with the visual of LongShorts scrambling to find a dictionary?

Have a delightful ...

" ... does a line judge even eyeball what folks have in their pouch prior to taking the line?"

I have never noticed anyone so much as giving a glance at shells. I don't know the circumstances surrounding folks being caught. Perhaps it's other shooters turning them in. They would look at my scores and think nobody in their right mind could be cheating yet shooting do poorly. :)

I agree though that given the amount of shooters that a few cheaters is minuscule. Then again, that's just the amount being caught.

Dr. l, I think way to much credit is given to the faster bullet. It maybe part but a small part in my opinion of the fanominal scoring acheived by a select group. I have a good friend that believes of the the same whos ablity exceeds mine and many. But I don't buy it. They didn't do nothing for scoring acheivement when first introduced in mid 70's. Many new editions, voice calls most notianly are responsible for as much if not more of the scoring increase outside of target presentation. Now obviously the reduced degree of angle has greatly influenced scoring. But as "goatskin" stated, 45 degree are still legal to throw. Why then will clubs not throw them? Because the average shooter across America does not want it. Why did so many travel and shoot the number of targets they did at select clubs that threw a less than legal target in the 80's and 90's? Even a small regional club drew bigger than average attendance.

You live in a region/area that the money oriented shooter survives. Oh yes I do know your area. But the good portion of the remainder of this country have developed a different logic about there shooting. Its more about the score/scores they broke on Sunday that they can relay to their friends on Monday via phone, email, internet or face to face. Its not about how much I won as it once was. I have no doubt that attendance would flourish at the type of venue you constantly speak of in your region. But when speaking for a wide expanse, you have to remember that "box" they speak of. What works in a given area will not fullfill the desires of a broad spectrum.

The money being played is not a more recent "Big Dog" thing. Decline started atleast in the 80's. Long before voice calls, the fullfillment of rhino rollers, easy targets and such.

Its sad for alot of us in the fact that once was will never be again. Had certain circumstances not been allowed decades ago then maybe today would have been different. But alas it was not. Maybe seen as insignificant at the time. I believe there is a word that is called evolution that may help explaing to some extent what has happened in trapshooting.

Dear Dr Longblow, I think I started shooting in 1990. I got my status of aa27aa and was proud when I did. I shot my first 200 straight at the grand in vandalia on the so called hard targets. Im 52 years old. No ego. Why do you post Dr in front of your name? Talk about an ego. Your no Dr of anything. Your a joke. You live in the past and in the shawdow of the greats of who you speak about in every post. You get no backing from anyone except a few dopes like yourself. You belittle anyone that has a grand slam on soft targets. As poor of a shooter as you are and to talk about others that have made stats shows what a joke you really are. I dont care how old you are, when you started shooting or about the old days. Everytime you spout about something you have done your outed and made to be a liar. Doesnt it get old for you? God man at 71 Id think you would want to enjoy life instead of being a feeble minded dope, with all due respect to the DR...again your a joke. By the way when I replied to your of your idiot post a few months ago you had looked at my stats and replied that I was a dam good shooter so why was I against one of your dumb changes or did you forget? Stop posting with DR in front of your name. DR Chris Teeters aka TRAPSHOOTERAA27AA

I buy everyting Pheasantmaster said. IMO, the cause of trapshooting's decline has soley to do with the economy. Higher costs, lower incomes and uncertainty. Has little, if anything to do with faster shells or wider targets or how far back the concrete goes. A multi-year All American that I traveled the tour with extensively shot Federal Ultra-Lights on everything including 27 yard targets. Each state has a different complection of trapshooter. Some shoot registered and games for money, in some states almost none exists. So, for me, I think the ATA does a good job of making most shooters happy. Who would claim that any organization could make all participants happy? For those who want change, I applaud you for your effort and wish you well. I was a member of the TTA (Tournament Trapshooters Assoc) and Tour Development Director for Pro Shooters Tour. Change can be good but you're kidding yourself if you think you can be successful and negative at the same time. IMO and from what I hear from many, some of you bent on change are making lots of enemies within the ATA ranks of members with all the finger-pointing and blame game. You can achieve success for all without alienating many. I sincerely wish you good luck...

milt

Milt, you don't get it, do you?

It is not enough that the True Church of {sob} Vandalia be seen with damp eyes and hushed words, it is that ALLLLL the apostates and heretics be shamed and humiliated and acknowledge their apostasy for all time, unto 4, maybe 5 generations.

Arrogance and Ignorance and shrill Incantations kinda go hand-in-hand in declining religions.

Frankly, I don't see how OH shooters are not ashamed to have LongShorts be their public face. And he is.

Bob

Bob,

Evidently I don't (get it, that is).

milt

Finally we have two intelligent and accurate posts.

Thank you Pheasantmaster and Mette56.

Bill

Longshot and goatskin both appear to have gone to the same school- Blowhard Univ.

how so John? I thought I addressed your concerns, and I even used small words.

Likes to shoot. Same old story,If it agrees with your views, its intelligent? l Oldtimer

Clyde, I think you are misconstruing what l-t-s said, and what he referenced.

It seems that both posters he referenced gave a thoughtful, calm exposition of the views of a majority of ATA shooters (as expressed through their delegates and BoD).

Milt further opined that it might make more sense, if one wishes to attract support to an obvious minority position (True Church of {sob} Vandalia) that standing on the corner yelling and screaming at them for being such fools and idiots and weak-minds that they are swayed by the dark side ... might not be the best way to attract new friends and potential supporters.

There are common facts, but 'truth' is an opinion. Well, unless and until it crosses religion, and in this case, ... oh, well, you know the rest of it.

Bob

Well I guess the view is different when your not on your knees in worship when Dysinger is in the room.

There hows that? You didn't have to respond to my post!!!!

Hmm, Trapshooters quit shooting in droves when the 3-hole target was mandated. Removing that onerous requirement resulted in shooters numbers growing by leaps and bounds some would say!

Trinket shooters are the backbone of the ATA and growth will be achieved by catering to this essential group at all cost-each should receive an attendance medal!

More concrete is not needed for the top dogs say the trinket shooters because shooting ATA practice targets is the new norm and a key to the future!

Sporting Clays is a new phenomenon and once those younger shooters find out how really difficult and expensive it is will gravitate toward an old mans game called Trap. High end gun sales will increase substantially as those silly Sporting shooters will dump their Beretta autos and buy K-80's!

Everyone knows once the economy turns around, Sparta will easily surpass Vandalia in shooter turnout. Area infrastructure building will accompany the amazing growth.

Think again!!

When the ATA instituted policies that negatively affected money shooters they lost 1/2 their shooter base. The ATA will ultimately lose the battle of attrition if they continue to cater to professional practice shooters!!

oleo, From what I've seen, even the young sporting guys are already shooting P and K guns!

Trap is boring to them. Our five stand shooters surpass trap shooters by 5X on our practice night.

Many of those young kids make 3x as much money as we ever earned-not HS grads that's for sure!!

I have trouble understanding why so many of you are on Dr. LS 's case. I enjoy his posts. Perhaps it's my age (71 also). I think everyone who posts on here deserves a little more respect and lattitude then he's been given.

I'm sorry I wasn't on the computor to defend my honor the last few days, I was busy as TD at the Cardinal Center, running a trap shoot that made the ATA 10 grand or so in daily fees.

Thanks for keeping my name in the news, Bill Clinton proved there is no bad press.

I'm looking forword to an interesting fall and winter, but some of you need to step up your game and come with some facts instead of name calling and unprovable opinions.

Brad

Oh damn Brad....Facts? You know how "real facts" ruin a good story...and in this case, a good thread!!

Curt

FEAB9

Wow! I'm impressed with Goatskin's vocabulary and mastery of the english language. I think he had a brainstorm. Too intelligent for TS.COM 1OT