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Zone shoot meeting Colorado

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by bellemandi, Sep 17, 2007.

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  1. bellemandi

    bellemandi TS Member

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    Any reactions from the happenings at our State Zone meeting this past Friday at Pikes Peak Gun Club?
     
  2. AAleadvail27

    AAleadvail27 TS Member

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    I wasn't there Friday . Shot Sat. and Sun .

    What happened ?

    Bob
     
  3. bellemandi

    bellemandi TS Member

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    The big one was the chance of our Zone shoot dates. The zone shoot now will be held the last weekend of July (25,26,27). This was done to try to increase the attendance to the shoot since it has gone down the past few years. This date falls in between the State shoot (June) and the Labor day shoot (September).

    The biggest issue was that the date change was done at the request of many shooters and clubs, including Pikes Peak Club. Pikes Peak Club bided on the Zone shoot without realizing that the already had committed that weekend to the Western State games. This left the Zone shoot without a club, after several options and discussion, Grand Junction Trap Club took a chance and decided to host the upcoming Zone shoot in 2008. This created lots of tension with Pikes Peak Gun Club due to the fact in the opinion of many the BOD and directors of that club are not interested in having ATA registered shoots.
     
  4. AAleadvail27

    AAleadvail27 TS Member

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    Well , Junction has a nice facility . I enjoyed shooting at the 2006 Zone there . Glad they still run ATA .

    Your never going to get the same attendance as the state or labor day shoot's . I hope the date change works out .

    Wow!! kudos to Pikes Peak on the entertainment Sat. nite . I didn't know trapshooters could dance .

    Thanks ,Bob
     
  5. darwinbene

    darwinbene Member

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    Better recheck the dates. I thought it was the 18th thru the 20 July.
     
  6. Alex Ragulsky

    Alex Ragulsky TS Member

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    Now let me get this straight:

    In September of last year the CSTA voted to hold the Zone shoot in conjunction with the State shoot in an attempt to get more shooter participation . Then Pike's Peak in conjunction with three other clubs demanded a special meeting to fight this new idea (to try something different and increase the shooter attendance).

    Funny thing was at the September 2006 meeting most of the people who demanded the special meeting were too busy hunting, or too tired or whatever to attend a regularly scheduled meeting so because they didn't get their way demanded the special meeting.

    At the special meeting in December the vote was changed and now the Zone shoot was to be held in September at Pike's Peak. (What is the definition of insanity--doing the same thing that you've always done and expecting different results).

    Now comes the September meeting at the Zone shoot at Pike's Peak. Pike's Peak votes to change the shoot date and it passes. Then they submit their bid only to be told by their manager that they can't host the shoot that weekend because of prior committments for another discipline. So Pike's Peak withdraws their bid and the Grand Junction Trap Club takes the shoot on changed days in July, which is never hot in Grand Junction.

    Why did the directors allow Pike's Peak to change the shoot to a date that they (Pike's Peak) would not support? From my sources it sounds like Grand Junction was not planning on hosting this shoot and only stepped up when Pike's Peak screwed up.

    Grand Junction is a great facility and I would rather shoot there anyway (except for Tony's biscits and gravey which is still the best in the state!).

    Absolutely unbelievable!

    Alex Ragulsky
     
  7. AAleadvail27

    AAleadvail27 TS Member

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    It is hot in the middle of July in Jct. for sure .
     
  8. darwinbene

    darwinbene Member

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    Hey Alex, you didn't hear the rest of the story. There is still going to be a special meeting in Dec or Jan for budget report and I will bet there will be more discussion on the Zone shoot dates. Time will tell.
     
  9. SI

    SI TS Member

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    Zone attendance has been down in the past years and this year was no different. What part of low attendance does not seem to sink in with some of our representatives? Last year it was voted by a MAJORITY to hold it in conjunction with the state shoot, which is very economically feasible, but no a select few wanted to continue with tradition, which did not work and now lets move the date and have the same mess!!!!. While the CSTA continues to loose money lets just hold another zone shoot to pay out money for trophies and added purse money. Get a grip folks, run this like a business, cut expenses or increase revenue. Hold it with the state shoot and kill two birds with one stone. The average shooter watches their pocket books and by combining the zone shoot with the state shoot only one trip would be necessary. Just my opinion, a normal member of the CSTA, so why would some of the board members just listen to a member, they haven't so far.

    Dan Simon
     
  10. bellemandi

    bellemandi TS Member

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    The dates are July 25, 26, 27 for 2008. The changed was made to the last weekend on July. We will have a special meeting to go over othr issues sometime late January or February, however the Zone date change is a done deal and it will not be discussed during the upcoming meeting. Grand Junction has done a great job by bidding on the Zone shoot, however Alex, they were had a prepared bid anyway they just were not sure of the date. The date change came up for the purpose of giving the Zone an opportunity to draw more shooters. The September date had not worked for the past few years and something had to be done to fix it. Combining the Zone shoot with the State shoot was an option but in the other hand it would take away monies from the CSTA which are very much needed. July date falls in between the State and Labor day shoot. Is it hot? sure it is, but so is the State and Labor dat shoot. I much rather shoot in hot weather than a day like this past Friday or last years zone shoot weekend.

    SHOTALOT: Not sure who you are, but even though I give to you that most of the CSTA wanted the date change, Pike's Peak was the force behind it for the past few months. I have no bias towards any club and instead support any club that can make the CSTA better and enhance us shooters. Pike's Peak has been making noise for the past few months and this was their dress rehersal. Though they do put a great entertaiment and the food was awesome, the rest of the shoot was very dissapointing. No excuse for no communication between Pikes Peak BOD and who ever is in charge of their ATA events. I was there when the president of the BOD made the statement that they would rather host a 36 shooter event instead of a 3 day ATA event. In my opinion as well as most of other people in the room we were not very welcome. Adding to that mess is their attitude on Saturday and Sunday, you could hardly get any help with shoot-offs and trophies. If it wasn't for Tiger and myself we would still be there handling what should had been their responsability.

    I hope Pikes Peak get their act together, because it is a nice place to shoot and they have a good facility. I am just very sad that it had to be the way it was but that was the way it came down and we all should be aware it.
     
  11. bellemandi

    bellemandi TS Member

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    Dan:

    Please read my reply which I was typing at the same time as you were.

    Please note that CSTA does no longer pay for trophies with the exception of the zone team buckles and team monies which they would have to pay anyway no matter when the shoot is held. No added money is provided by CSTA as well.
    By holding the zone shoot separate from the State shoot, it does give another club an opportunity to throw targets as well as CSTA does generate an income as well.
     
  12. SI

    SI TS Member

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    Bellemandi:

    Did read your reply and thanks. I too have no axes to grind with any of the clubs so if they want to host a zone shoot, great. My point is still travel time and expense, a trip to grand junction for three days is over $500.00 and only 30 days after traveling the same approximate distance to the state shoot, give the shooters a break, make it one major event, zone and state.

    Also, it is not a done deal, any two clubs can call a special meeting and get things changed, remember last year. If we have enough special meetings eventually by attritition you will get only the members that support your idea. There is no interest in even holding a zone qualifier in our part of the state, so more than likely we won't send a team anyway, so any zone shoot would only be just like holding a regular ATA event, no more shooters than usual.

    Dan
     
  13. Alex Ragulsky

    Alex Ragulsky TS Member

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    I happen to know for a fact that Grand Junction wasn't planning on bidding the Zone and only did so when PP screwed up. The Grand Junction representative said that he just took PP's bid and changed the venue to Grand Junction.

    Dan: I think you were right on with what you said and I agree with you 100%. The food was top drawer (the two meals that I had) and the office staff really had their stuff together. But it ends there.

    Bellemandi: If I remember right Bill Dhieux, a shooter (not board member or anything like that) had to score doubles Sunday morning because of lack of help.

    It is disappointing to see that the majority of the CSTA board won't get of their collective fat butts and do their jobs. This is a "state-sponsored" shoot and as such directors should have been out there helping out. Yes, I know that it is Pike's Peaks responsibility to insure adequate help but still, CSTA board members should step up at a CSTA shoot.

    Now is the time for the CSTA Board to wake up and understand that the shoot is not and should not be primarily focused on "what is best for the CSTA" but rather what is best for the shooters. The front range clubs, primarily Pike's Peak, are dismayed because western slope shooters don't go there to shoot (as shown by the once again declining attendence--and they said it wouldn't happen). Delta and Grand Junction notice that shooters from the Front Range don't attent their shoots. While part of the problem IS the clubs a lot has to do with shooters like me who have to work and don't want to drive 5-8 hours to attend a shoot. Take a day at each end and the three day shoot is now five days. Combining the Zone shoot with the State shoot only makes good sense, which is why some people will never allow it to happen. The operative word is greed. Seems that the people who are most against this plan are afraid that the Delta Trap Club may make a few dollars more.

    Right now in my opinion there are only two clubs capable of holding a bigger shoot (in Colorado). That being Grand Junction and Delta. Forgive my ignornace at failing to mention other clubs but I haven't shot at every club in Colorado. It is clear by this dismal performance that Pike's Peak sure can't do it. Colorado Clays could host an excellent shoot but they lack sufficient traps. Golden has enought traps but the management is.....well, we'll just say lacking in many areas.

    As a positive sidelight, I got my check from PP yesterday, Tuesday, two days after the shoot was over. Again shows that the office runs smoothly. Hats off to Carla and Rose.

    Funny thing, for those of you who were at the "special meeting" last December, and to anyone else who would listen to my ranting, I predicted this. Honestly it is not as bad as I imagined but it is no way up to the potential of the CSTA and Pike's Peak. Glad I got out of the politics when I did and can now complain like everyone else. Congratulations Pike's Peak and the CSTA you got what you wanted and for damn sure what you deserved. The only ones to pay the price for your lack of foresight is the shooters of Colorado. Good job guys!

    Alex Ragulsky
     
  14. bellemandi

    bellemandi TS Member

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    Alex: I do not believe that the CSTA Board is doing what is best for them and not the shooters. As a member of the CSTA Board that comment is insulting to me for the fact that I have spent much time working on making things better for the shooters. But the fact comes down to, that shooters will boycott a shoot because they do not like a club and this goes for the eastern and western side as well. Both are guilty of this period. Why should the CSTA Board cancel a shoot because of that. I agree with Dan as far as the expenses and Alex I agree with you as far as the time that it takes to get there and so forth. But it all comes down to wanting to do something. This years zone team competition was won by the Northern zone. We had 3 full teams there and only 2 bird separated second and third place. On the ladies side only 6 birds separated all 4 ladies. First place was $150, second $100 and third $50 plus the winner took the buckles. If your zone can not get shooters is because you are not trying hard enough as well as all this negative crap does not help. The only change I like to see is that we handled all classes same as category. This means AA,A,B,C,D compete against all AA,A,B,C,D. Take the top 4 or 5 scores for each zone and you have a zone team champion. This will allow a zone to compete if a class shooter does not make it. Also it is difficult to find a C or D class shooter this days. I think this will add some more interest to the shoot. The host club can also make an effort to get sponsorship, added money etc.

    Alex: It is not as messy as you make it sound. We need the support of the shooters and we need people to stop whinning and complaining and support the CSTA. The vote was 18-3 to change the zone shoot date. After Pikes Peak screw up we voted again to rescind the change and the vote was 17-4 to keep it. Obviously we are all in the same page.
     
  15. Alex Ragulsky

    Alex Ragulsky TS Member

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    Luis:

    Why is it that when shooters and I disagree with the BOD we, the shooters, are always wrong (whinning and "crap")? It's because the BOD has their own interest in focus and not the shooters. Wake up and listen for a change and you'll see. Talk to the average shooter, not just people who you know well and like. You'll see.

    If you are insulted by my comments then so be it. That was not my intention. But maybe you can explain why the attendence is going down and shooter dissatisfaction, specifically with the way PP ran the shoot, is going up? You say it's because of "whinning" by a few (when you really mean me) but Luis, that's not the case. It's because the CSTA is simply not listening. It's because of rampent greed by clubs who want, but can't handle, everything.

    How about splitting the Zone shoot and holding it at two clubs? Because one club wouldn't make all the money, that's why.

    I supported the CSTA for 18 years, 10 of those holding office. Don't preach to me about supporting the CSTA. I did not own a club nor was I in partnership, making money off of a club. I worked for the best interest of the shooters FIRST and FOREMOST. The CSTA was second. My interest were way done the list.

    You say the vote was 17 to 4. Well Luis, look at the four who voted to change it. I think you'll see that those four directors probably had more time in trapshooting then the rest of the board combined.

    If you want me to be a good little Polock and not make waves, not point out deficiencies, not say that the King is naked then come out and say so. Oh, what a minute, you did. Well too bad, old buddy. Because those days are gone.

    This Zone situation is a screwed up mess. People tried to fix it last year only to be beat out by greed. Let's call a spade a spade Luis. They don't have the best interest of the shooters or the CSTA at heart. All they want is to make money. And a piece of the pie isn't good enough for them, they want the whole thing. You can go right ahead thinking I'm wrong and I well may be. But there are a lot more shooters who agree with me than you think. Those shooters communicate not only in words but in actions as well. If they didn't then why didn't all of the metro area shooters drive the 75 miles to shoot? Because they see what the problems are and they are fed up.

    You mentioned the lack of a metro zone team. I'll be sure to share your comments on that with the MZ shooters who showed up but were disqualified because one shooter didn't make it. You say we didn't try hard enough. Luis, please tell me what we did and didn't do to have a full team since you seem to know so much about it. The reason we didn't and haven't fielded a full team for years is because of the problems that I have mentioned. When is the last time YOU gave your team members a flat of shells (out of your own pocket) to insure their attendence? When is the last time you offered lodging to make sure that team members came to Zone? We, the MZ, have tired. The bottom line is that the Zone shoot, as currently ran, isn't working. And a date change won't help much. Especially that date. And why should I have to try to recruit shooters anyway? I'm a nothing in the CSTA except a shooter. Maybe the BOD should stop patting themselves on the back for a job well done (not) and do something.

    If I'm wrong so be it. But it seems that the majority of the shooters rule this out. Out of 800 shooters (plus) in this state we had what, maybe 80? 10%. Even you could understand that one, can't you? And the biggest zone, metro, is only a few miles away and they couldn't field a fully qualified team of 5 shooters. Wake up and smell the Folgers Luis. The shooters aren't speaking, they'er yelling, that this is not what they want. What part don't you understand?

    Alex Ragulsky
     
  16. bellemandi

    bellemandi TS Member

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    Alex, this thread was intended to discuss the Zone shoot and not Alex Ragulsky. This is a general discussion in reference to the events that took place on Friday night during our semi-annual CSTA Board meeting.
    "is disappointing to see that the majority of the CSTA board won't get of their collective fat butts and do their jobs". That is what you wrote on a previous thread. Pikes Peak was responsible to run the shoot from start to finish as stated on their bid submitted during the special meeting at Colorado Clays. CSTA was in charge of handling the zone trophies and zone scores which we did. However, we also ended up handling all shoot-offs as well as scores for both Saturday and Sunday.

    Explain to me how does the CSTA make money out of this. We paid out $2,200 in zone money as well as monies spent on buckles. We had and average of 90 shooters for all three days. At $3.00 per shooter per day CSTA pocketed $810 for the entire 3 day event. So you tell me where is the CSTA interest since it cost us $1,700 to hold this shoot. You chose to resign from the CSTA for your own reasons. You could had continued on and voice your opinions which is all of this is anyway. It is not an attack on an individual like you think is on you but just a forum to discuss issues. A 17-4 not once but twice is pretty obvious to me. The State has 600 registered shooters and the attendance on Saturday and Sunday was about 100 shooters. A 17% which is not very good but much better than it has been the last two years. The whole purpose of this is to raise the attendance and hopefully the date changed will help. It is up to all of us to put our differences away and come together to help this sport get better. It is bad enough that it is getting more expensive every year, we need the support of every one to make it more sucessful.

    For your information the BOD did not pat themselves in the back for a job well done. We are trying to do our best to help the shooting in our State and your comments as well as your attitude towards all of us do not help.
     
  17. tb54

    tb54 TS Member

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    i want to start by saying when this all started i was for combining the 2 shoots, and i am still, but ive also heard both sides to it, and there is good points to both sides of it, the meeting was a dissasster, dan treat has worked very hard at putting a zone shoot together and my hat goes off to him, i feel he was let down very badly by the ppgc, he was not aware of the conflicting dates, even though he had told the ppgc bod about it a week ago, i will not return to shoot at ppgc because of the way dan was treated, not because of the way the shoot was run, i was proud of grandjunction stepping up to the plate and holding the 2008 zone shoot, sincerely rob sovine western zone vp
     
  18. bellemandi

    bellemandi TS Member

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    Rob

    Very well said, I did forget to mention how bad I felt for Dan Treat. I know he worked very hard in getting this done and I can not imagine how he felt Friday night.
     
  19. darwinbene

    darwinbene Member

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    Got an idea!
    Maybe there could be research done to see how many other states hold a seperate State Zone Shoot. In fact how many states hold ZQ shoots. This way maybe information could be presented whether or not to continue in the manner we have. I am not suggesting that CSTA follow the crowd, but maybe just gather information.
    I forget how much needs to be trimmed in expenses so that we don't continue to spend the interest on the building fund. By combining with the State Shoot there would be a savings of nearly $10,000.00. That seems like a good practice. I agree with Dan S. If I were in business and losing this kind of dollars I would't be in business very long. I also like Robbie's statement. Good job Dan you were blind sided.
    Thanks, Darwin
     
  20. kjsncnb

    kjsncnb Member

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    Luis, Alex, and the rest, I was at the meeting Friday night for a friend, as an outsider (not a BOD) all I can say is, what a mess.

    We have a building fund with no plans to build anything; it’s making interest that we can’t use to offset the deficit of operating in the hole because that money has to stay in the building fund for who knows what.

    I was not particularly fond of the date change of the zone shoot, but I really don’t care one way or another, if I can shoot it I will but more than likely not in 2008, with it being that close to the state shoot, I may still be catching up on work from being gone a week for the state shoot, I really did like the September date.

    But the biggest thing that will influence our amount of ATA shooting for the 2008 season is the loss of the discounted targets for the Jr. Shooters, I know I may be in the minority of CSTA members that drag along a rug rat to the shoots, but I really think the CSTA is not looking into the future with this decision.

    If the stats I have been given are correct, just in the SCTP alone the growth between 06 and 07 is going to be almost double, that’s a lot of youngsters out there that could be potential income for the CSTA. Just in Northern Colorado we have added 32 new SCTP trap shooters in the last 3 months, I have encouraged these kids to at least give an ATA shoot a try before next spring to get the feel of the competition, my main selling point to the kids was that it didn’t cost a whole lot more than practice targets if they just shoot for trophies, this would give them the experience of a larger event and who knows maybe they would like it and stick with it.

    I just hope the BOD can find some other way to cut expenses in the future so we can get the support back for the Jr. Shooters.

    Kelly
     
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