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You don't bring a 3D printer to a gun fight -- yet

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by mtimney, Dec 2, 2012.

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  1. mtimney

    mtimney TS Member

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    An interesting article...
    Mark T.
     
  2. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Anybody remember the big "plastic gun scare when Glocks first came out?


    (places paper bag over mouth..."They're potentially undetectable by airport scanners, gasp, wheeze!")
     
  3. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Another thing for anti-gun liberals and useful tool Fudds to get worked up about.

    The main issue is the barrel and locking mechanism. They have to be able to withstand a lot of pressure. The .22 LR is listed by SAAMI at 24,000 PSI. 9mm Luger is 35,000 psi. .223 Rem is 55,000. And these are working pressures, not proof loads. (See link.)

    Pressure rating of a 1/2" ABS Schedule 40 pipe is 475 PSI, while a 1/2" ABS Schedule 80 pipe is 675 PSI.

    So even if the "bore diameter" were reduced and the wall thickness were to be substantially increased for an ABS barrel, it's still going to be vastly short of the working pressures of even a 22 LR cartridge.

    Further, because it is plastic, the internal walls can temporarily act like they are fluid under intense pressure. This invites bulging of the chamber or barrel. Not to mention what the intense heat of firing is going to do to the bore. On top of that, a jacketed bullet is going to win the friction battle with the lands. And I have my doubts that plastic lands are even going to hold up against dead soft lead bullets.

    Bolts or slides are going to require mass to function properly in a semi-automatic. Where is that mass going to come from? Sure you can add a hollow area to insert lead weights, but even so space is limited and it is doubtful enough ballast can be added.

    If you look at the example handgun, it looks like it is based on an AR15 in .223. But it is actually a .22 LR. There are some significant reasons why the maker chose to use this particular setup. I have a CMMG .22 LR AR15 upper. The aluminum upper and lower receivers see very little in the way of any kind of working pressures or spring loading.

    The barrel is self-contained for pressure and the conversion unit is indeed that, a unit that inserts in place of the norrmal .223 bolt. It does not take a lot of strength to house these parts because these parts deal with the pressure.

    The only thing the plastic upper and lower have to do is keep the gun together and house the fire control parts and magazine. (And note he did not print a magazine either). The AR15 upper and lower still had to be beefed up for the pivot pin because ABS plastic is weak. Note there is no buttstock. He chose to make a handgun because the upper is very weak for holding a buffer tube, even if its only purpose is to attach the buttstock.

    And it should be noted there are already plastic uppers and lowers for AR15s, though they are injection molded using proper grades of plastic under pressure. One ts.com member has sold several here.

    Frankly at this point I'm not very impressed with the plastic printer. The real advancement is not going to be with plastic printing but metal printing, which is already here. There are a lot of gun parts already being printed in metal, then fused in a furnace to permanent shape. This is tricky because the part shrinks during fusing (up to 25%). Right now MIM (Metal Injection Molding) is primarily used for small parts, up to 100 grams. No doubt improvements will reach the point where larger parts can be made. Also, it is possible to print gun parts in plastic, dip the part in ceramic slip, fire it, melt out the core, and pour molten metal into it. That's basically what Ruger does with most of their guns, but they injection mold large trees of wax gun parts including frames, slides and receivers. Printing in wax to make gun castings is much more viable than making plastic guns. I think the plastic printing of gun parts is being badly over hyped, at least for the foreseeable future.
     
  4. Catpower

    Catpower Molon Labe TS Supporters

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    Be careful Brian you are going to confuse the great professor
     
  5. mtimney

    mtimney TS Member

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    An interesting article...
    Mark T.
     
  6. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Anybody remember the big "plastic gun scare when Glocks first came out?


    (places paper bag over mouth..."They're potentially undetectable by airport scanners, gasp, wheeze!")
     
  7. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Another thing for anti-gun liberals and useful tool Fudds to get worked up about.

    The main issue is the barrel and locking mechanism. They have to be able to withstand a lot of pressure. The .22 LR is listed by SAAMI at 24,000 PSI. 9mm Luger is 35,000 psi. .223 Rem is 55,000. And these are working pressures, not proof loads. (See link.)

    Pressure rating of a 1/2" ABS Schedule 40 pipe is 475 PSI, while a 1/2" ABS Schedule 80 pipe is 675 PSI.

    So even if the "bore diameter" were reduced and the wall thickness were to be substantially increased for an ABS barrel, it's still going to be vastly short of the working pressures of even a 22 LR cartridge.

    Further, because it is plastic, the internal walls can temporarily act like they are fluid under intense pressure. This invites bulging of the chamber or barrel. Not to mention what the intense heat of firing is going to do to the bore. On top of that, a jacketed bullet is going to win the friction battle with the lands. And I have my doubts that plastic lands are even going to hold up against dead soft lead bullets.

    Bolts or slides are going to require mass to function properly in a semi-automatic. Where is that mass going to come from? Sure you can add a hollow area to insert lead weights, but even so space is limited and it is doubtful enough ballast can be added.

    If you look at the example handgun, it looks like it is based on an AR15 in .223. But it is actually a .22 LR. There are some significant reasons why the maker chose to use this particular setup. I have a CMMG .22 LR AR15 upper. The aluminum upper and lower receivers see very little in the way of any kind of working pressures or spring loading.

    The barrel is self-contained for pressure and the conversion unit is indeed that, a unit that inserts in place of the norrmal .223 bolt. It does not take a lot of strength to house these parts because these parts deal with the pressure.

    The only thing the plastic upper and lower have to do is keep the gun together and house the fire control parts and magazine. (And note he did not print a magazine either). The AR15 upper and lower still had to be beefed up for the pivot pin because ABS plastic is weak. Note there is no buttstock. He chose to make a handgun because the upper is very weak for holding a buffer tube, even if its only purpose is to attach the buttstock.

    And it should be noted there are already plastic uppers and lowers for AR15s, though they are injection molded using proper grades of plastic under pressure. One ts.com member has sold several here.

    Frankly at this point I'm not very impressed with the plastic printer. The real advancement is not going to be with plastic printing but metal printing, which is already here. There are a lot of gun parts already being printed in metal, then fused in a furnace to permanent shape. This is tricky because the part shrinks during fusing (up to 25%). Right now MIM (Metal Injection Molding) is primarily used for small parts, up to 100 grams. No doubt improvements will reach the point where larger parts can be made. Also, it is possible to print gun parts in plastic, dip the part in ceramic slip, fire it, melt out the core, and pour molten metal into it. That's basically what Ruger does with most of their guns, but they injection mold large trees of wax gun parts including frames, slides and receivers. Printing in wax to make gun castings is much more viable than making plastic guns. I think the plastic printing of gun parts is being badly over hyped, at least for the foreseeable future.
     
  8. Catpower

    Catpower Molon Labe TS Supporters

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    Be careful Brian you are going to confuse the great professor
     
  9. mtimney

    mtimney TS Member

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    Brian/CatPower... You both exemplify the epitimy of stupidity by continuing to believe that just because someone doesn't agree with your right-wing agenda they must automatically hate guns.

    You want to take me on in trap? Come on up to New Hampshire... $100 says I can beat you in a high overall race of 50 singles, 50 doubles and 50 handicap (from the 27 yard line).

    I'll also bet you a $100 that I can beat you in IDPA competition.

    Mark T.
     
  10. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

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    "Anybody remember the big "plastic gun scare when Glocks first came out?"

    Yep!!

    Anybody remember which city Mayor and State Governor who spoke out against the plastic guns, YET That CITY was the first to dump their, then, present sidearms and ASAP'ed the Glock's???

    Its also the State that couldn't find a single AR "black gun" in any of their "evidence rooms" to bolster their need for signing the Brady Bill into law!!! SO AS to stop crime!!
     
  11. Catpower

    Catpower Molon Labe TS Supporters

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    Mark it will take more than that, for me to come up there to wax you ass
     
  12. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    mtimney, quote: <i>"Brian/CatPower... You both exemplify the epitimy of stupidity by continuing to believe that just because someone doesn't agree with your right-wing agenda they must automatically hate guns.

    You want to take me on in trap? Come on up to New Hampshire... $100 says I can beat you in a high overall race of 50 singles, 50 doubles and 50 handicap (from the 27 yard line).

    I'll also bet you a $100 that I can beat you in IDPA competition.

    Mark T."</i>

    I weave a pattern and you claim the cloth fits you. Interesting.

    I don't care how good of a shot you are. If you are for banning of other people's firearms, you are an anti-gunner. Period. You also lack the common sense and intelligence to understand that when the firearms you could not care less about are gone, YOURS are next. Harlon Carter once said he'd rather be fighting the anti's in the suburbs than on the corner of First and Main. Your intellectual capacity isn't too impressive if you cannot figure that one out.

    Frankly, you are nothing more than an anti-gunner pretending to be a pro-gunner, while resorting to a snobbish, bigoted attitude about other gun owners and their guns. I see no hope of salvaging you, so the next best thing is to hold you up as an example of someone in our ranks that who is nothing more than a Quisling:


    View attachment 202131
     
  13. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Meanwhile, for those of you who aren't anti-gun and have some imagination, think of the possibilities for printing non-stressed parts of firearms, like, say, custom making your own gun grips or forends some day, or printing angled shims for buttplates or pads that match your stock without the need for grinding.
     
  14. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    According to the ATA website, Mark Timney of NH is a 22.5 yard shooter...but I'm sure he's shot some 27 yd. "practice"


    (maybe he'll give us his USPSA number - for some real entertainment).
     
  15. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Nice one, Buzzy, LOL.
     
  16. daddiooo

    daddiooo TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    OOOOOOOO.....the gauntlett has been thrown down. Break out the popcorn.


    Spent some time in NH a while back......no reason or intentions of returning.
     
  17. fast gun

    fast gun Active Member

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    Somebody needs a time out
     
  18. stokinpls

    stokinpls Well-Known Member

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    New Hampshire, one of the first colonies to break with Great Britain, and now one of the first states to go full-on socialist. Go figure.

    Bob Falfa
     
  19. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Giggle.....
     
  20. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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